[78-L] Victor 19571, was Re: Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?

[David Lennick]

All fascinating..now I wonder if that speed discrepancy is on other early 
electricals recorded by WE?

dl

On 4/5/2012 12:57 AM, Steve Williams wrote:
> Let's not miss one point here, Victor did not have its own electric recorder
> until March 12, 1925.  The Victor ledgers only list Victor recordings.
> Western Electric had its own studio to, of course, demonstrate the process
> to Columbia and Victor (and Brunswick).  Paper records of some of these
> apparently exist, since late 1924 WE-recorded Victor tests are documented. -
> The talent still had to paid for their time... It is almost certain that
> "You and I" was recorded by Western Electric; documentation of such may or
> may not be among the Western Electric paperwork.  If Rust had extended the
> Master book back a few tens of matrixes then he would probably have stumbled
> upon the mystery, and traced down the "missing" recording, possibly
> post-publication. Several other early electric matrixes that started as
> acoustics were also missed (see below).
>
> " There is at least one earlier Victor electric issued to the public than
> 19626
> (Buenos Aires, Shilkret, March 20/25), the Miniature Concert by the Eight
> Popular Victor Artists..don't have the date handy but one side of it is from
>
> February, if I recall."
>
> Yes, Mid February at Western Electric.  The Popular Artists recorded this
> session both acoustically and electrically. The reason THIS Western Electric
> recording is documented by Victor is that it is a legitimate release, with
> matrixes shared with the acoustics..  The test was good enough for issue,
> just as Art Gilham's earliest electric release was in fact a test, but
> nevertheless issued - on the Columbia Gold label. The first Victor in-house
> electric recordings were done March 14, 15, and 16th.
>
> Look on page 9 of the Master book. 32098-1, March 13, Victor 19624, the
> International Novelty Orchestra in "My Kid." That was recorded ACOUSTICALLY.
> And of course acoustic recordings continue into the 19700s.  Then March 14th
> an ELECTRIC classical recording appears on 12", then nothing much until
> March 25 when a lot of recording is done in Houston and New Orleans,
> acoustically (?)   Victor has been installing and testing their electric
> recording instruments.  April 2 Waring records "Little Peach" electrically,
> 32197-2 (19636) (Nice record!) but the flip "Swanee Butterfly" matrix 31878
> is not listed in RMB2.  Go to dance band, Waring, he tries 5 times to
> ACOUSTICALLY record this on February 27, all are rejected, maybe because for
> their first ELECTRIC recording they go into the studio again on April 2nd,
> 1925. Take 9 is finally released. This is the lowest electric release number
> other than 19626 (and 19571 of course.) One previous attempt, probably
> acoustic, of "Does my Sweetie Do..." was rejected.  Then on April 3rd they
> try again, 32192-6 and that's their third electric recording to be released,
> (19655) again with 6 takes while getting used to the new recording
> conditions.
>
> ..  Steve Williams  ..
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 23:24:10 -0400
> From: David Lennick<dlennick at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: [78-L] Victor 19571, was Re:  Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?
> To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP24BEF7038E9017BC934B01BD330 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>
> For the first time, I've just played both sides of Canadian Victor 19571
> right
> through, with the speed variations I referred to in the last message, i.e.
> playing both of them in F Major. And they're within a second of each other.
> Previous comments were based on distant memories. Nothing about the
> electrical
> side sounds like what was being recorded in Montreal in 1925 (although
> Canadian
> Victor made some wonderful records of bands like Harold Leonard and Fred
> Culley
> in 1930).
>
> For those who just tuned in, Canadian Victor 19571 was an unusual pressing,
> labelled "Not For Sale", containing acoustical and electrical versions of
> the
> same tune, "You And I", identified as being played by Jack Shilkret's
> Orchestra. US 19571 contained only the acoustical version, recorded January
> 22,
> 1925 in New York and backed with Fred Waring's "Will You Remember Me"
> recorded
> the following day in Camden.
>
> I'm still curious why the electrical side is recorded 3.8% below 78RPM.
> Having
> an acoustical matrix number, its remake wouldn't be in Rust's VMB2 (it
> missed
> the cutoff by 3 days or about 30 numbers), but does the EDVR at UCSB have
> any
> information? Just this:
> http://victor.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/matrix/search
>
> Matrix B-31753. You and I / Jack Shilkret Orchestra
>
> Primary TitleShow Additional Titles 	Source
> You and I 	Disc label
>
> TitleHide Additional Titles 	Source 	
> You and I (Primary title) 	Disc label
> Fox trot (Title descriptor) 	Disc label
> My girl (Work title) 	Disc label
>
> Authors and Composers 	Notes
> Harry Archer (composer) 	
>
> Composer information source: Disc label
>
> PersonnelHide Additional Performers
> 	
> Notes
> 	
> Jack Shilkret Orchestra (Musical group) 	
> Jack Shilkret (leader) 	Listed as Dir. in Victor ledgers
> LeRoy Shield (conductor) 	Take 2; listed as Dir. in Victor ledgers
>
> Primary Performer Show Additional Performers 	Notes 	
> Jack Shilkret Orchestra (Musical group) 	
>
> Description: Orchestra
> Instrumentation: 2 violins, 3 saxophones, 2 cornets, trombone, tuba, banjo,
> piano, and traps
> Category: Instrumental
> Master Size: 10-inch
> Title Note: Disc label also credits lyricist Harlan Thompson.
> Share |
> Take Date and Place
> 	
> Take
> 	Status 	Label Name/Number 	
> Format
> 	
> Note
> 	Show Issued Only
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	1 	Destroy 		
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	2 	Master 	Victor 19571 	
> 10" disc
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	2 	Master 	Gramophone 4-907 	
> 10" disc
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	2 	Master 	Gramophone 4-983 	
> 10" disc
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	2 	Master 	Gramophone (France) K-2967
>
> 10" disc
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	3 	Destroy 		
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	4 	Hold 		
> 	
>
> Take Date and Place
> 	
> Take
> 	Status 	Label Name/Number 	
> Format
> 	
> Note
> 	Show All Takes
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	
> 2
> 	Master 	Victor 19571 	
> 10" disc
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	
> 2
> 	Master 	Gramophone 4-907 	
> 10" disc
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	
> 2
> 	Master 	Gramophone 4-983 	
> 10" disc
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	
> 2
> 	Master 	Gramophone (France) K-2967 	
> 10" disc
> 	
> Nothing about a remake using the same matrix number, and I'm unable to find
> anything by looking for the title.
>
> dl
>
> On 4/4/2012 10:23 PM, David Lennick wrote:
>> On 4/4/2012 9:32 PM, Steve Williams wrote:
>>> Herbert Berliner was using Marsh Equipment?
>>
>> No, Compo pressed some Autographs for Canadian issue, including a few
> early
>> Jesse Crawfords. So he recorded electrically for Marsh before recording
>> acoustically for Victor.
>> I thought the type of equipment
>>> being used was never established, but that the Canadian recordings
> sounded
>>> better than the US Marsh stuff, even better than early Pallaphotophone.
>>> Sutton postulates that the first Victor tests, which are not documented
>>> either at Western Electric, nor as any WE or GE field test, were done by
>>> Compo.. There are only negative implications, where the Electric tests
> were
>>> NOT done..
>>>
>>> I have 19571, it seems to me they are the same orchestra. The electric
> side
>>> sounds like Jack Shilkret or the International Novelty Orchestra playing
>>> very carefully, possibly not being used to the mic and seating
> arrangement.
>>> However several researchers have indeed suggested the Electric was
> recorded
>>> in Montreal. Sound balance-wise a good comparison is with Waring's
> "Little
>>> Peach" recorded April 2nd for 19636, which may have been the first
>>> INTERNATIONAL Victor black label electric release, after 19626, which was
>>> only regional.  I have this record in a very clean E condition.
>>
>> I have a copy as well. The electrical side doesn't have a take number, the
>> catalogue number has a different font, and there's no other session in
> Rust
>> where Shilkret could have recorded it electrically, at least not in the
> US.
>>>
>>> Compo DID have a New York office, which probably was
> electrically-equipped.
>>> Also, though Victor did not have an Electric studio until March, there
> was a
>>> studio at Western Electric, and "You and I" may have been done there as a
>>> Western Electric demo.. The electric side sounds like early Victor; with
>>> correct mic resonance, EQ, and all. Since Victor equipment was not being
>>> used under any scenario for the electric side of 19571, then it wouldn't
>>> have to be "Victor Electric speed" thus the pitch would be off. The
> acoustic
>>> side of 19571 sounds like Victor acoustic, such as Jack Shilkret's
> "Charley
>>> My Boy" 19420.  This is all speculation, while they were alive the right
>>> people were not asked the right questions about this change to electric.
>>>
>>> ..  Steve Williams  .
>>
>> There is at least one earlier Victor electric issued to the public than
> 19626
>> (Buenos Aires, Shilkret, March 20/25), the Miniature Concert by the Eight
>> Popular Victor Artists..don't have the date handy but one side of it is
> from
>> February, if I recall.
>>
>> Here's the thing about 19571. The acoustical side plays in F (a tiny tad
> above
>> F, easily adjusted by taking the speed down 0.5%). The electrical side
> doesn't.
>> To play it in F you have to go down 3.8%. At 78 it plays closer to F# (go
> up
>> 2.3% and you got it). I think I prefer it in F, but that's quite a
> difference
>> in speed, especially for Victor. Hmm. (yes, I just checked my copy.)
>>
>> dl
>>>
>>>
>>> Message: 7
>>> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 20:57:32 -0400
>>> From: David Lennick<dlennick at sympatico.ca>
>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?
>>> To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP5661CD7F488D122C22ED62BD320 at phx.gbl>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>>>
>>>> Compo issued electricals before other labels, but they were from Marsh
>>> Labs.
>>>> Tell me more about Compo doing Victor's electrical tests!
>>>> There's an interesting hybrid disc released only in Canada, purporting
> to
>>> be
>>>> Jack Shilkret's Orchestra doing YOU AND I acoustically on one side (blue
>>> label)
>>>> and electrically on the other (black label). The odd thing is that they
> are
>>>
>>>> likely not the same orchestra at all, and the electrical side appears to
> be
>>> of
>>>> Canadian origin but nobody's found out which orchestra did it. It sounds
> to
>>> me
>>>> as if someone copied the arrangement from the acoustical side and had a
>>> local
>>>> orchestra try and duplicate it. It also sounds as if the transcriber
> played
>>> the
>>>> acoustical version at the wrong speed because the sides don't match in
>>> pitch,
>>>> and not in an "acousticals play faster" fashion.
>>>
>>> dl
>>>
>>> On 4/3/2012 8:47 PM, Mike Daley wrote:
>>>> Except that it was Emile Berliner's son Herbert that started Compo, in
>>>> direct competition with his father.
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compo_Company
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Steve Williams<jazzhunter at collector.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> Remember that this is tied in with introduction of electric recording.
>>> In
>>>>> Canada from the get-go electrically-recorded Victors identified the new
>>>>> process on the label as "V.E. Process", the VE in an oblong being
>>> required
>>>>> under the Western Electric contract to identify recordings made with
>>> their
>>>>> patented method.  Also the labels generally switched from blue to
> black,
>>>>> though continuing and reissued acoustic releases used a black label.  I
>>> have
>>>>> seen a blue "VE Process" label on a standard 10" dance band release,
> but
>>>>> that's rare.. Overall however both acoustic and Electric releases used
>>> the
>>>>> same batwing style.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, in the States, to protect the backlog of Acoustic recordings
>>>>> (though the story goes a bit deeper than that) electric releases were
> not
>>>>> acknowledged in any way, except for the VE symbol embedded in the
> runout
>>>>> area.  When Victor decided to admit to the superior Electric process in
>>>>> November 1925 they did it with a bang, ads in the papers, store flyers
>>> etc.
>>>>> and trademarked it as "Orthophonic."  At this time, to emphasise the
> big
>>>>> improvement, they introduced the scroll (or Octagon) label with the
> "VE"
>>> at
>>>>> the top.  Canada continued to use the batwing label except "VE Process"
>>> was
>>>>> changed to "VE Orthophonic" and later just "Orthophonic" with a tiny VE
>>>>> symbol above that. There was no big announcement of a change in
> Canadian
>>>>> releases, therefore probably that's why there was no big change in
> label
>>>>> style.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just by the way, The Compo Company in Montreal had North America's
> first
>>>>> electric studio actually releasing product in 1924.  The earliest
> Victor
>>>>> electric tests were done by Canadian Compo, which was founded by
> Berliner
>>>>> after he left Victor.  So Canada has a special place in the history of
>>>>> electric recording, along with Victor actually acknowledging Electric
>>>>> releases before the US.  Canadian Victor was AHEAD of the US, not
>>> "Behind"
>>>>> in doing anything...
>>>>>
>>>>> ..Steve Williams  ..
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 9
>>>>> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 08:57:21 -0400
>>>>> From: David Lennick<dlennick at sympatico.ca>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?
>>>>> To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>>>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP495DF80E6A0182B6A40284BD4D0 at phx.gbl>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope, Canada never had them. Maybe a slightly modified scroll for the
>>>>> Program
>>>>>> Transcriptions, but for general releases Canadian Victor stuck with
>>> Batwing
>>>>>
>>>>>> right through 1946. We were even a year late changing that to RCA
>>> Victor,
>>>>> we
>>>>>> kept Buff Bluebird into 1939 and used the Staff label for only about
> six
>>>>> months
>>>>>> as well. The first Scroll label in Canada might have been on the lp
>>> Nilsson
>>>>>
>>>>>> Schmilsson.
>>>>>
>>>>> dl
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/3/2012 1:30 AM, Clifford Bolling wrote:
>>>>>> In the U.S., Victor labels evolved from Batwing to Scroll to Ring
> design
>>>>> for their labels.
>>>>>> Did the Scroll label get skipped for Canadian pressings and go
> straight
>>>>> from Batwing to Rings??
>>>>>> I have some Canadian pressed 'HIS MASTER'S VOICE/VICTOR' label records
>>>>> that I know
>>>>>> were made in the 1940s that are still Batwing, but I don't recall ever
>>>>> seeing Canadian Scroll design labels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://PDX78s.cdbpdx.com/CanSC/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks!  CDB
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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