[78-L] Victor 19571, was Re: Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?
Paul Christenzen
picz65 at gmail.com
Thu Apr 5 07:47:00 PDT 2012
Now hasn't this been a lot more interesting than blathering about idiots
on eBay? Let's stay on point people!!
David Lennick wrote:
> All fascinating..now I wonder if that speed discrepancy is on other early
> electricals recorded by WE?
>
> dl
>
> On 4/5/2012 12:57 AM, Steve Williams wrote:
>
>> Let's not miss one point here, Victor did not have its own electric recorder
>> until March 12, 1925. The Victor ledgers only list Victor recordings.
>> Western Electric had its own studio to, of course, demonstrate the process
>> to Columbia and Victor (and Brunswick). Paper records of some of these
>> apparently exist, since late 1924 WE-recorded Victor tests are documented. -
>> The talent still had to paid for their time... It is almost certain that
>> "You and I" was recorded by Western Electric; documentation of such may or
>> may not be among the Western Electric paperwork. If Rust had extended the
>> Master book back a few tens of matrixes then he would probably have stumbled
>> upon the mystery, and traced down the "missing" recording, possibly
>> post-publication. Several other early electric matrixes that started as
>> acoustics were also missed (see below).
>>
>> " There is at least one earlier Victor electric issued to the public than
>> 19626
>> (Buenos Aires, Shilkret, March 20/25), the Miniature Concert by the Eight
>> Popular Victor Artists..don't have the date handy but one side of it is from
>>
>> February, if I recall."
>>
>> Yes, Mid February at Western Electric. The Popular Artists recorded this
>> session both acoustically and electrically. The reason THIS Western Electric
>> recording is documented by Victor is that it is a legitimate release, with
>> matrixes shared with the acoustics.. The test was good enough for issue,
>> just as Art Gilham's earliest electric release was in fact a test, but
>> nevertheless issued - on the Columbia Gold label. The first Victor in-house
>> electric recordings were done March 14, 15, and 16th.
>>
>> Look on page 9 of the Master book. 32098-1, March 13, Victor 19624, the
>> International Novelty Orchestra in "My Kid." That was recorded ACOUSTICALLY.
>> And of course acoustic recordings continue into the 19700s. Then March 14th
>> an ELECTRIC classical recording appears on 12", then nothing much until
>> March 25 when a lot of recording is done in Houston and New Orleans,
>> acoustically (?) Victor has been installing and testing their electric
>> recording instruments. April 2 Waring records "Little Peach" electrically,
>> 32197-2 (19636) (Nice record!) but the flip "Swanee Butterfly" matrix 31878
>> is not listed in RMB2. Go to dance band, Waring, he tries 5 times to
>> ACOUSTICALLY record this on February 27, all are rejected, maybe because for
>> their first ELECTRIC recording they go into the studio again on April 2nd,
>> 1925. Take 9 is finally released. This is the lowest electric release number
>> other than 19626 (and 19571 of course.) One previous attempt, probably
>> acoustic, of "Does my Sweetie Do..." was rejected. Then on April 3rd they
>> try again, 32192-6 and that's their third electric recording to be released,
>> (19655) again with 6 takes while getting used to the new recording
>> conditions.
>>
>> .. Steve Williams ..
>>
>> Message: 13
>> Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 23:24:10 -0400
>> From: David Lennick<dlennick at sympatico.ca>
>> Subject: [78-L] Victor 19571, was Re: Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?
>> To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP24BEF7038E9017BC934B01BD330 at phx.gbl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>>
>> For the first time, I've just played both sides of Canadian Victor 19571
>> right
>> through, with the speed variations I referred to in the last message, i.e.
>> playing both of them in F Major. And they're within a second of each other.
>> Previous comments were based on distant memories. Nothing about the
>> electrical
>> side sounds like what was being recorded in Montreal in 1925 (although
>> Canadian
>> Victor made some wonderful records of bands like Harold Leonard and Fred
>> Culley
>> in 1930).
>>
>> For those who just tuned in, Canadian Victor 19571 was an unusual pressing,
>> labelled "Not For Sale", containing acoustical and electrical versions of
>> the
>> same tune, "You And I", identified as being played by Jack Shilkret's
>> Orchestra. US 19571 contained only the acoustical version, recorded January
>> 22,
>> 1925 in New York and backed with Fred Waring's "Will You Remember Me"
>> recorded
>> the following day in Camden.
>>
>> I'm still curious why the electrical side is recorded 3.8% below 78RPM.
>> Having
>> an acoustical matrix number, its remake wouldn't be in Rust's VMB2 (it
>> missed
>> the cutoff by 3 days or about 30 numbers), but does the EDVR at UCSB have
>> any
>> information? Just this:
>> http://victor.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/matrix/search
>>
>> Matrix B-31753. You and I / Jack Shilkret Orchestra
>>
>> Primary TitleShow Additional Titles Source
>> You and I Disc label
>>
>> TitleHide Additional Titles Source
>> You and I (Primary title) Disc label
>> Fox trot (Title descriptor) Disc label
>> My girl (Work title) Disc label
>>
>> Authors and Composers Notes
>> Harry Archer (composer)
>>
>> Composer information source: Disc label
>>
>> PersonnelHide Additional Performers
>>
>> Notes
>>
>> Jack Shilkret Orchestra (Musical group)
>> Jack Shilkret (leader) Listed as Dir. in Victor ledgers
>> LeRoy Shield (conductor) Take 2; listed as Dir. in Victor ledgers
>>
>> Primary Performer Show Additional Performers Notes
>> Jack Shilkret Orchestra (Musical group)
>>
>> Description: Orchestra
>> Instrumentation: 2 violins, 3 saxophones, 2 cornets, trombone, tuba, banjo,
>> piano, and traps
>> Category: Instrumental
>> Master Size: 10-inch
>> Title Note: Disc label also credits lyricist Harlan Thompson.
>> Share |
>> Take Date and Place
>>
>> Take
>> Status Label Name/Number
>> Format
>>
>> Note
>> Show Issued Only
>> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 1 Destroy
>>
>> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 2 Master Victor 19571
>> 10" disc
>>
>> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 2 Master Gramophone 4-907
>> 10" disc
>>
>> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 2 Master Gramophone 4-983
>> 10" disc
>>
>> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 2 Master Gramophone (France) K-2967
>>
>> 10" disc
>>
>> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 3 Destroy
>>
>> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 4 Hold
>>
>>
>> Take Date and Place
>>
>> Take
>> Status Label Name/Number
>> Format
>>
>> Note
>> Show All Takes
>> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York)
>> 2
>> Master Victor 19571
>> 10" disc
>>
>> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York)
>> 2
>> Master Gramophone 4-907
>> 10" disc
>>
>> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York)
>> 2
>> Master Gramophone 4-983
>> 10" disc
>>
>> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York)
>> 2
>> Master Gramophone (France) K-2967
>> 10" disc
>>
>> Nothing about a remake using the same matrix number, and I'm unable to find
>> anything by looking for the title.
>>
>> dl
>>
>> On 4/4/2012 10:23 PM, David Lennick wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/4/2012 9:32 PM, Steve Williams wrote:
>>>
>>>> Herbert Berliner was using Marsh Equipment?
>>>>
>>> No, Compo pressed some Autographs for Canadian issue, including a few
>>>
>> early
>>
>>> Jesse Crawfords. So he recorded electrically for Marsh before recording
>>> acoustically for Victor.
>>> I thought the type of equipment
>>>
>>>> being used was never established, but that the Canadian recordings
>>>>
>> sounded
>>
>>>> better than the US Marsh stuff, even better than early Pallaphotophone.
>>>> Sutton postulates that the first Victor tests, which are not documented
>>>> either at Western Electric, nor as any WE or GE field test, were done by
>>>> Compo.. There are only negative implications, where the Electric tests
>>>>
>> were
>>
>>>> NOT done..
>>>>
>>>> I have 19571, it seems to me they are the same orchestra. The electric
>>>>
>> side
>>
>>>> sounds like Jack Shilkret or the International Novelty Orchestra playing
>>>> very carefully, possibly not being used to the mic and seating
>>>>
>> arrangement.
>>
>>>> However several researchers have indeed suggested the Electric was
>>>>
>> recorded
>>
>>>> in Montreal. Sound balance-wise a good comparison is with Waring's
>>>>
>> "Little
>>
>>>> Peach" recorded April 2nd for 19636, which may have been the first
>>>> INTERNATIONAL Victor black label electric release, after 19626, which was
>>>> only regional. I have this record in a very clean E condition.
>>>>
>>> I have a copy as well. The electrical side doesn't have a take number, the
>>> catalogue number has a different font, and there's no other session in
>>>
>> Rust
>>
>>> where Shilkret could have recorded it electrically, at least not in the
>>>
>> US.
>>
>>>> Compo DID have a New York office, which probably was
>>>>
>> electrically-equipped.
>>
>>>> Also, though Victor did not have an Electric studio until March, there
>>>>
>> was a
>>
>>>> studio at Western Electric, and "You and I" may have been done there as a
>>>> Western Electric demo.. The electric side sounds like early Victor; with
>>>> correct mic resonance, EQ, and all. Since Victor equipment was not being
>>>> used under any scenario for the electric side of 19571, then it wouldn't
>>>> have to be "Victor Electric speed" thus the pitch would be off. The
>>>>
>> acoustic
>>
>>>> side of 19571 sounds like Victor acoustic, such as Jack Shilkret's
>>>>
>> "Charley
>>
>>>> My Boy" 19420. This is all speculation, while they were alive the right
>>>> people were not asked the right questions about this change to electric.
>>>>
>>>> .. Steve Williams .
>>>>
>>> There is at least one earlier Victor electric issued to the public than
>>>
>> 19626
>>
>>> (Buenos Aires, Shilkret, March 20/25), the Miniature Concert by the Eight
>>> Popular Victor Artists..don't have the date handy but one side of it is
>>>
>> from
>>
>>> February, if I recall.
>>>
>>> Here's the thing about 19571. The acoustical side plays in F (a tiny tad
>>>
>> above
>>
>>> F, easily adjusted by taking the speed down 0.5%). The electrical side
>>>
>> doesn't.
>>
>>> To play it in F you have to go down 3.8%. At 78 it plays closer to F# (go
>>>
>> up
>>
>>> 2.3% and you got it). I think I prefer it in F, but that's quite a
>>>
>> difference
>>
>>> in speed, especially for Victor. Hmm. (yes, I just checked my copy.)
>>>
>>> dl
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Message: 7
>>>> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 20:57:32 -0400
>>>> From: David Lennick<dlennick at sympatico.ca>
>>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?
>>>> To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP5661CD7F488D122C22ED62BD320 at phx.gbl>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Compo issued electricals before other labels, but they were from Marsh
>>>>>
>>>> Labs.
>>>>
>>>>> Tell me more about Compo doing Victor's electrical tests!
>>>>> There's an interesting hybrid disc released only in Canada, purporting
>>>>>
>> to
>>
>>>> be
>>>>
>>>>> Jack Shilkret's Orchestra doing YOU AND I acoustically on one side (blue
>>>>>
>>>> label)
>>>>
>>>>> and electrically on the other (black label). The odd thing is that they
>>>>>
>> are
>>
>>>>
>>>>> likely not the same orchestra at all, and the electrical side appears to
>>>>>
>> be
>>
>>>> of
>>>>
>>>>> Canadian origin but nobody's found out which orchestra did it. It sounds
>>>>>
>> to
>>
>>>> me
>>>>
>>>>> as if someone copied the arrangement from the acoustical side and had a
>>>>>
>>>> local
>>>>
>>>>> orchestra try and duplicate it. It also sounds as if the transcriber
>>>>>
>> played
>>
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>> acoustical version at the wrong speed because the sides don't match in
>>>>>
>>>> pitch,
>>>>
>>>>> and not in an "acousticals play faster" fashion.
>>>>>
>>>> dl
>>>>
>>>> On 4/3/2012 8:47 PM, Mike Daley wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Except that it was Emile Berliner's son Herbert that started Compo, in
>>>>> direct competition with his father.
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compo_Company
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Steve Williams<jazzhunter at collector.org>
>>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Remember that this is tied in with introduction of electric recording.
>>>>>>
>>>> In
>>>>
>>>>>> Canada from the get-go electrically-recorded Victors identified the new
>>>>>> process on the label as "V.E. Process", the VE in an oblong being
>>>>>>
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>>>> under the Western Electric contract to identify recordings made with
>>>>>>
>>>> their
>>>>
>>>>>> patented method. Also the labels generally switched from blue to
>>>>>>
>> black,
>>
>>>>>> though continuing and reissued acoustic releases used a black label. I
>>>>>>
>>>> have
>>>>
>>>>>> seen a blue "VE Process" label on a standard 10" dance band release,
>>>>>>
>> but
>>
>>>>>> that's rare.. Overall however both acoustic and Electric releases used
>>>>>>
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>>>> same batwing style.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, in the States, to protect the backlog of Acoustic recordings
>>>>>> (though the story goes a bit deeper than that) electric releases were
>>>>>>
>> not
>>
>>>>>> acknowledged in any way, except for the VE symbol embedded in the
>>>>>>
>> runout
>>
>>>>>> area. When Victor decided to admit to the superior Electric process in
>>>>>> November 1925 they did it with a bang, ads in the papers, store flyers
>>>>>>
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>>>> and trademarked it as "Orthophonic." At this time, to emphasise the
>>>>>>
>> big
>>
>>>>>> improvement, they introduced the scroll (or Octagon) label with the
>>>>>>
>> "VE"
>>
>>>> at
>>>>
>>>>>> the top. Canada continued to use the batwing label except "VE Process"
>>>>>>
>>>> was
>>>>
>>>>>> changed to "VE Orthophonic" and later just "Orthophonic" with a tiny VE
>>>>>> symbol above that. There was no big announcement of a change in
>>>>>>
>> Canadian
>>
>>>>>> releases, therefore probably that's why there was no big change in
>>>>>>
>> label
>>
>>>>>> style.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just by the way, The Compo Company in Montreal had North America's
>>>>>>
>> first
>>
>>>>>> electric studio actually releasing product in 1924. The earliest
>>>>>>
>> Victor
>>
>>>>>> electric tests were done by Canadian Compo, which was founded by
>>>>>>
>> Berliner
>>
>>>>>> after he left Victor. So Canada has a special place in the history of
>>>>>> electric recording, along with Victor actually acknowledging Electric
>>>>>> releases before the US. Canadian Victor was AHEAD of the US, not
>>>>>>
>>>> "Behind"
>>>>
>>>>>> in doing anything...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ..Steve Williams ..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 9
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 08:57:21 -0400
>>>>>> From: David Lennick<dlennick at sympatico.ca>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?
>>>>>> To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>>>>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP495DF80E6A0182B6A40284BD4D0 at phx.gbl>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nope, Canada never had them. Maybe a slightly modified scroll for the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Program
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Transcriptions, but for general releases Canadian Victor stuck with
>>>>>>>
>>>> Batwing
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> right through 1946. We were even a year late changing that to RCA
>>>>>>>
>>>> Victor,
>>>>
>>>>>> we
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> kept Buff Bluebird into 1939 and used the Staff label for only about
>>>>>>>
>> six
>>
>>>>>> months
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> as well. The first Scroll label in Canada might have been on the lp
>>>>>>>
>>>> Nilsson
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Schmilsson.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> dl
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 1:30 AM, Clifford Bolling wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the U.S., Victor labels evolved from Batwing to Scroll to Ring
>>>>>>>
>> design
>>
>>>>>> for their labels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did the Scroll label get skipped for Canadian pressings and go
>>>>>>>
>> straight
>>
>>>>>> from Batwing to Rings??
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have some Canadian pressed 'HIS MASTER'S VOICE/VICTOR' label records
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> that I know
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> were made in the 1940s that are still Batwing, but I don't recall ever
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> seeing Canadian Scroll design labels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://PDX78s.cdbpdx.com/CanSC/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks! CDB
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
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