[78-L] Victor 19571, was Re: Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?

Wed Apr 4 21:57:52 PDT 2012

Let's not miss one point here, Victor did not have its own electric recorder
until March 12, 1925.  The Victor ledgers only list Victor recordings.
Western Electric had its own studio to, of course, demonstrate the process
to Columbia and Victor (and Brunswick).  Paper records of some of these
apparently exist, since late 1924 WE-recorded Victor tests are documented. -
The talent still had to paid for their time... It is almost certain that
"You and I" was recorded by Western Electric; documentation of such may or
may not be among the Western Electric paperwork.  If Rust had extended the
Master book back a few tens of matrixes then he would probably have stumbled
upon the mystery, and traced down the "missing" recording, possibly
post-publication. Several other early electric matrixes that started as
acoustics were also missed (see below).

" There is at least one earlier Victor electric issued to the public than
19626 
(Buenos Aires, Shilkret, March 20/25), the Miniature Concert by the Eight 
Popular Victor Artists..don't have the date handy but one side of it is from

February, if I recall."

Yes, Mid February at Western Electric.  The Popular Artists recorded this
session both acoustically and electrically. The reason THIS Western Electric
recording is documented by Victor is that it is a legitimate release, with
matrixes shared with the acoustics..  The test was good enough for issue,
just as Art Gilham's earliest electric release was in fact a test, but
nevertheless issued - on the Columbia Gold label. The first Victor in-house
electric recordings were done March 14, 15, and 16th.  

Look on page 9 of the Master book. 32098-1, March 13, Victor 19624, the
International Novelty Orchestra in "My Kid." That was recorded ACOUSTICALLY.
And of course acoustic recordings continue into the 19700s.  Then March 14th
an ELECTRIC classical recording appears on 12", then nothing much until
March 25 when a lot of recording is done in Houston and New Orleans,
acoustically (?)   Victor has been installing and testing their electric
recording instruments.  April 2 Waring records "Little Peach" electrically,
32197-2 (19636) (Nice record!) but the flip "Swanee Butterfly" matrix 31878
is not listed in RMB2.  Go to dance band, Waring, he tries 5 times to
ACOUSTICALLY record this on February 27, all are rejected, maybe because for
their first ELECTRIC recording they go into the studio again on April 2nd,
1925. Take 9 is finally released. This is the lowest electric release number
other than 19626 (and 19571 of course.) One previous attempt, probably
acoustic, of "Does my Sweetie Do..." was rejected.  Then on April 3rd they
try again, 32192-6 and that's their third electric recording to be released,
(19655) again with 6 takes while getting used to the new recording
conditions. 

..  Steve Williams  ..

Message: 13
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 23:24:10 -0400
From: David Lennick <dlennick at sympatico.ca>
Subject: [78-L] Victor 19571, was Re:  Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?
To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
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For the first time, I've just played both sides of Canadian Victor 19571
right 
through, with the speed variations I referred to in the last message, i.e. 
playing both of them in F Major. And they're within a second of each other. 
Previous comments were based on distant memories. Nothing about the
electrical 
side sounds like what was being recorded in Montreal in 1925 (although
Canadian 
Victor made some wonderful records of bands like Harold Leonard and Fred
Culley 
in 1930).

For those who just tuned in, Canadian Victor 19571 was an unusual pressing, 
labelled "Not For Sale", containing acoustical and electrical versions of
the 
same tune, "You And I", identified as being played by Jack Shilkret's 
Orchestra. US 19571 contained only the acoustical version, recorded January
22, 
1925 in New York and backed with Fred Waring's "Will You Remember Me"
recorded 
the following day in Camden.

I'm still curious why the electrical side is recorded 3.8% below 78RPM.
Having 
an acoustical matrix number, its remake wouldn't be in Rust's VMB2 (it
missed 
the cutoff by 3 days or about 30 numbers), but does the EDVR at UCSB have
any 
information? Just this:
http://victor.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/matrix/search

Matrix B-31753. You and I / Jack Shilkret Orchestra

Primary TitleShow Additional Titles 	Source
You and I 	Disc label

TitleHide Additional Titles 	Source 	
You and I (Primary title) 	Disc label
Fox trot (Title descriptor) 	Disc label
My girl (Work title) 	Disc label

Authors and Composers 	Notes
Harry Archer (composer) 	

Composer information source: Disc label

PersonnelHide Additional Performers

Notes

Jack Shilkret Orchestra (Musical group) 	
Jack Shilkret (leader) 	Listed as Dir. in Victor ledgers
LeRoy Shield (conductor) 	Take 2; listed as Dir. in Victor ledgers

Primary Performer Show Additional Performers 	Notes 	
Jack Shilkret Orchestra (Musical group) 	

Description: Orchestra
Instrumentation: 2 violins, 3 saxophones, 2 cornets, trombone, tuba, banjo, 
piano, and traps
Category: Instrumental
Master Size: 10-inch
Title Note: Disc label also credits lyricist Harlan Thompson.
Share |
Take Date and Place

Take
	Status 	Label Name/Number 	
Format

Note
	Show Issued Only
1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	1 	Destroy 		

1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	2 	Master 	Victor 19571 	
10" disc

1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	2 	Master 	Gramophone 4-907 	
10" disc

1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	2 	Master 	Gramophone 4-983 	
10" disc

1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	2 	Master 	Gramophone (France) K-2967

10" disc

1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	3 	Destroy 		

1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	4 	Hold 		

Take Date and Place

Take
	Status 	Label Name/Number 	
Format

Note
	Show All Takes
1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	
2
	Master 	Victor 19571 	
10" disc

1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	
2
	Master 	Gramophone 4-907 	
10" disc

1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	
2
	Master 	Gramophone 4-983 	
10" disc

1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	
2
	Master 	Gramophone (France) K-2967 	
10" disc

Nothing about a remake using the same matrix number, and I'm unable to find 
anything by looking for the title.

dl

On 4/4/2012 10:23 PM, David Lennick wrote:
> On 4/4/2012 9:32 PM, Steve Williams wrote:
>> Herbert Berliner was using Marsh Equipment?
>
> No, Compo pressed some Autographs for Canadian issue, including a few
early
> Jesse Crawfords. So he recorded electrically for Marsh before recording
> acoustically for Victor.
> I thought the type of equipment
>> being used was never established, but that the Canadian recordings
sounded
>> better than the US Marsh stuff, even better than early Pallaphotophone.
>> Sutton postulates that the first Victor tests, which are not documented
>> either at Western Electric, nor as any WE or GE field test, were done by
>> Compo.. There are only negative implications, where the Electric tests
were
>> NOT done..
>>
>> I have 19571, it seems to me they are the same orchestra. The electric
side
>> sounds like Jack Shilkret or the International Novelty Orchestra playing
>> very carefully, possibly not being used to the mic and seating
arrangement.
>> However several researchers have indeed suggested the Electric was
recorded
>> in Montreal. Sound balance-wise a good comparison is with Waring's
"Little
>> Peach" recorded April 2nd for 19636, which may have been the first
>> INTERNATIONAL Victor black label electric release, after 19626, which was
>> only regional.  I have this record in a very clean E condition.
>
> I have a copy as well. The electrical side doesn't have a take number, the
> catalogue number has a different font, and there's no other session in
Rust
> where Shilkret could have recorded it electrically, at least not in the
US.
>>
>> Compo DID have a New York office, which probably was
electrically-equipped.
>> Also, though Victor did not have an Electric studio until March, there
was a
>> studio at Western Electric, and "You and I" may have been done there as a
>> Western Electric demo.. The electric side sounds like early Victor; with
>> correct mic resonance, EQ, and all. Since Victor equipment was not being
>> used under any scenario for the electric side of 19571, then it wouldn't
>> have to be "Victor Electric speed" thus the pitch would be off. The
acoustic
>> side of 19571 sounds like Victor acoustic, such as Jack Shilkret's
"Charley
>> My Boy" 19420.  This is all speculation, while they were alive the right
>> people were not asked the right questions about this change to electric.
>>
>> ..  Steve Williams  .
>
> There is at least one earlier Victor electric issued to the public than
19626
> (Buenos Aires, Shilkret, March 20/25), the Miniature Concert by the Eight
> Popular Victor Artists..don't have the date handy but one side of it is
from
> February, if I recall.
>
> Here's the thing about 19571. The acoustical side plays in F (a tiny tad
above
> F, easily adjusted by taking the speed down 0.5%). The electrical side
doesn't.
> To play it in F you have to go down 3.8%. At 78 it plays closer to F# (go
up
> 2.3% and you got it). I think I prefer it in F, but that's quite a
difference
> in speed, especially for Victor. Hmm. (yes, I just checked my copy.)
>
> dl
>>
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 20:57:32 -0400
>> From: David Lennick<dlennick at sympatico.ca>
>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?
>> To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP5661CD7F488D122C22ED62BD320 at phx.gbl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>>
>>> Compo issued electricals before other labels, but they were from Marsh
>> Labs.
>>> Tell me more about Compo doing Victor's electrical tests!
>>> There's an interesting hybrid disc released only in Canada, purporting
to
>> be
>>> Jack Shilkret's Orchestra doing YOU AND I acoustically on one side (blue
>> label)
>>> and electrically on the other (black label). The odd thing is that they
are
>>
>>> likely not the same orchestra at all, and the electrical side appears to
be
>> of
>>> Canadian origin but nobody's found out which orchestra did it. It sounds
to
>> me
>>> as if someone copied the arrangement from the acoustical side and had a
>> local
>>> orchestra try and duplicate it. It also sounds as if the transcriber
played
>> the
>>> acoustical version at the wrong speed because the sides don't match in
>> pitch,
>>> and not in an "acousticals play faster" fashion.
>>
>> dl
>>
>> On 4/3/2012 8:47 PM, Mike Daley wrote:
>>> Except that it was Emile Berliner's son Herbert that started Compo, in
>>> direct competition with his father.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compo_Company
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Steve Williams<jazzhunter at collector.org>
>> wrote:
>>>> Remember that this is tied in with introduction of electric recording.
>> In
>>>> Canada from the get-go electrically-recorded Victors identified the new
>>>> process on the label as "V.E. Process", the VE in an oblong being
>> required
>>>> under the Western Electric contract to identify recordings made with
>> their
>>>> patented method.  Also the labels generally switched from blue to
black,
>>>> though continuing and reissued acoustic releases used a black label.  I
>> have
>>>> seen a blue "VE Process" label on a standard 10" dance band release,
but
>>>> that's rare.. Overall however both acoustic and Electric releases used
>> the
>>>> same batwing style.
>>>>
>>>> However, in the States, to protect the backlog of Acoustic recordings
>>>> (though the story goes a bit deeper than that) electric releases were
not
>>>> acknowledged in any way, except for the VE symbol embedded in the
runout
>>>> area.  When Victor decided to admit to the superior Electric process in
>>>> November 1925 they did it with a bang, ads in the papers, store flyers
>> etc.
>>>> and trademarked it as "Orthophonic."  At this time, to emphasise the
big
>>>> improvement, they introduced the scroll (or Octagon) label with the
"VE"
>> at
>>>> the top.  Canada continued to use the batwing label except "VE Process"
>> was
>>>> changed to "VE Orthophonic" and later just "Orthophonic" with a tiny VE
>>>> symbol above that. There was no big announcement of a change in
Canadian
>>>> releases, therefore probably that's why there was no big change in
label
>>>> style.
>>>>
>>>> Just by the way, The Compo Company in Montreal had North America's
first
>>>> electric studio actually releasing product in 1924.  The earliest
Victor
>>>> electric tests were done by Canadian Compo, which was founded by
Berliner
>>>> after he left Victor.  So Canada has a special place in the history of
>>>> electric recording, along with Victor actually acknowledging Electric
>>>> releases before the US.  Canadian Victor was AHEAD of the US, not
>> "Behind"
>>>> in doing anything...
>>>>
>>>> ..Steve Williams  ..
>>>>
>>>> Message: 9
>>>> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 08:57:21 -0400
>>>> From: David Lennick<dlennick at sympatico.ca>
>>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?
>>>> To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP495DF80E6A0182B6A40284BD4D0 at phx.gbl>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>>> Nope, Canada never had them. Maybe a slightly modified scroll for the
>>>> Program
>>>>> Transcriptions, but for general releases Canadian Victor stuck with
>> Batwing
>>>>
>>>>> right through 1946. We were even a year late changing that to RCA
>> Victor,
>>>> we
>>>>> kept Buff Bluebird into 1939 and used the Staff label for only about
six
>>>> months
>>>>> as well. The first Scroll label in Canada might have been on the lp
>> Nilsson
>>>>
>>>>> Schmilsson.
>>>>
>>>> dl
>>>>
>>>> On 4/3/2012 1:30 AM, Clifford Bolling wrote:
>>>>> In the U.S., Victor labels evolved from Batwing to Scroll to Ring
design
>>>> for their labels.
>>>>> Did the Scroll label get skipped for Canadian pressings and go
straight
>>>> from Batwing to Rings??
>>>>> I have some Canadian pressed 'HIS MASTER'S VOICE/VICTOR' label records
>>>> that I know
>>>>> were made in the 1940s that are still Batwing, but I don't recall ever
>>>> seeing Canadian Scroll design labels.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://PDX78s.cdbpdx.com/CanSC/
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!  CDB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------

------------------------------

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