[78-L] Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?

[Michael Biel]

On 4/4/2012 10:23 PM, David Lennick wrote:
> On 4/4/2012 9:32 PM, Steve Williams wrote:
>> Herbert Berliner was using Marsh Equipment?
> No, Compo pressed some Autographs for Canadian issue, including a few early
> Jesse Crawfords. So he recorded electrically for Marsh before recording
> acoustically for Victor.
There's the two Apex Radiatone broadcast airchecks and there is a photo 
of Herbert Berliner at some electrical equipment in Roll Back the Years.

> I thought the type of equipment
>> being used was never established, but that the Canadian recordings sounded
>> better than the US Marsh stuff, even better than early Pallaphotophone.
>> Sutton postulates that the first Victor tests, which are not documented
>> either at Western Electric, nor as any WE or GE field test, were done by
>> Compo.. There are only negative implications, where the Electric tests were
>> NOT done..

There are Victor electrical experiments between 1922 and 1924 detailed 
in the Albertus Hewitt notebooks.
>>
>> I have 19571, it seems to me they are the same orchestra. The electric side
>> sounds like Jack Shilkret or the International Novelty Orchestra playing
>> very carefully, possibly not being used to the mic and seating arrangement.
>> However several researchers have indeed suggested the Electric was recorded
>> in Montreal. Sound balance-wise a good comparison is with Waring's "Little
>> Peach" recorded April 2nd for 19636, which may have been the first
>> INTERNATIONAL Victor black label electric release, after 19626, which was
>> only regional.  I have this record in a very clean E condition.

There are a bunch of electrical recordings made by both these 
organizations in the ledger sheets but were not issued.  But there are 
issued black label sides recorded prior to April 2.

19730B was recorded electrically on Mon Mar 23, 1925 on B-VE 32179-3 
Petite Suite Impromptu
35755B was recorded electrically on Mon Mar23, 1925  on C-VE 32180-2 
Berecuse from Petite Suite
35758A was recorded elecctrically on Tues Mar24, 1925 on C-VE 32182-1.  
Duo from Petite Suite  V Conc O.
19630 was recorded electrically Thurs Mar 26, 1925 on BVE 32183-1 All 
Aboard and 32184-2  Let It Rain.  Meyer Davis
19655B was recorded electrically on Thurs Mar 26, 1925 on BVE 32185-3  
Bye and Bye.
19650A was recorded electrically on Thurs April 2, 1925 on BVE 32198-3 
Homeland   Victor Male Chorus.

Of course there are the Red Seal Cortot's on Sat Mar 21.

Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com

> I have a copy as well. The electrical side doesn't have a take number, the
> catalogue number has a different font, and there's no other session in Rust
> where Shilkret could have recorded it electrically, at least not in the US.
>> Compo DID have a New York office, which probably was electrically-equipped.
>> Also, though Victor did not have an Electric studio until March, there was a
>> studio at Western Electric, and "You and I" may have been done there as a
>> Western Electric demo.. The electric side sounds like early Victor; with
>> correct mic resonance, EQ, and all. Since Victor equipment was not being
>> used under any scenario for the electric side of 19571, then it wouldn't
>> have to be "Victor Electric speed" thus the pitch would be off. The acoustic
>> side of 19571 sounds like Victor acoustic, such as Jack Shilkret's "Charley
>> My Boy" 19420.  This is all speculation, while they were alive the right
>> people were not asked the right questions about this change to electric.
>>
>> ..  Steve Williams  .
> There is at least one earlier Victor electric issued to the public than 19626
> (Buenos Aires, Shilkret, March 20/25), the Miniature Concert by the Eight
> Popular Victor Artists..don't have the date handy but one side of it is from
> February, if I recall.
>
> Here's the thing about 19571. The acoustical side plays in F (a tiny tad above
> F, easily adjusted by taking the speed down 0.5%). The electrical side doesn't.
> To play it in F you have to go down 3.8%. At 78 it plays closer to F# (go up
> 2.3% and you got it). I think I prefer it in F, but that's quite a difference
> in speed, especially for Victor. Hmm. (yes, I just checked my copy.)
>
> dl
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 20:57:32 -0400
>> From: David Lennick<dlennick at sympatico.ca>
>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?
>> To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP5661CD7F488D122C22ED62BD320 at phx.gbl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>>
>>> Compo issued electricals before other labels, but they were from Marsh
>> Labs.
>>> Tell me more about Compo doing Victor's electrical tests!
>>> There's an interesting hybrid disc released only in Canada, purporting to
>> be
>>> Jack Shilkret's Orchestra doing YOU AND I acoustically on one side (blue
>> label)
>>> and electrically on the other (black label). The odd thing is that they are
>>> likely not the same orchestra at all, and the electrical side appears to be
>> of
>>> Canadian origin but nobody's found out which orchestra did it. It sounds to
>> me
>>> as if someone copied the arrangement from the acoustical side and had a
>> local
>>> orchestra try and duplicate it. It also sounds as if the transcriber played
>> the
>>> acoustical version at the wrong speed because the sides don't match in
>> pitch,
>>> and not in an "acousticals play faster" fashion.
>> dl
>>
>> On 4/3/2012 8:47 PM, Mike Daley wrote:
>>> Except that it was Emile Berliner's son Herbert that started Compo, in
>>> direct competition with his father.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compo_Company
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Steve Williams<jazzhunter at collector.org>
>> wrote:
>>>> Remember that this is tied in with introduction of electric recording.
>> In
>>>> Canada from the get-go electrically-recorded Victors identified the new
>>>> process on the label as "V.E. Process", the VE in an oblong being
>> required
>>>> under the Western Electric contract to identify recordings made with
>> their
>>>> patented method.  Also the labels generally switched from blue to black,
>>>> though continuing and reissued acoustic releases used a black label.  I
>> have
>>>> seen a blue "VE Process" label on a standard 10" dance band release, but
>>>> that's rare.. Overall however both acoustic and Electric releases used
>> the
>>>> same batwing style.
>>>>
>>>> However, in the States, to protect the backlog of Acoustic recordings
>>>> (though the story goes a bit deeper than that) electric releases were not
>>>> acknowledged in any way, except for the VE symbol embedded in the runout
>>>> area.  When Victor decided to admit to the superior Electric process in
>>>> November 1925 they did it with a bang, ads in the papers, store flyers
>> etc.
>>>> and trademarked it as "Orthophonic."  At this time, to emphasise the big
>>>> improvement, they introduced the scroll (or Octagon) label with the "VE"
>> at
>>>> the top.  Canada continued to use the batwing label except "VE Process"
>> was
>>>> changed to "VE Orthophonic" and later just "Orthophonic" with a tiny VE
>>>> symbol above that. There was no big announcement of a change in Canadian
>>>> releases, therefore probably that's why there was no big change in label
>>>> style.
>>>>
>>>> Just by the way, The Compo Company in Montreal had North America's first
>>>> electric studio actually releasing product in 1924.  The earliest Victor
>>>> electric tests were done by Canadian Compo, which was founded by Berliner
>>>> after he left Victor.  So Canada has a special place in the history of
>>>> electric recording, along with Victor actually acknowledging Electric
>>>> releases before the US.  Canadian Victor was AHEAD of the US, not
>> "Behind"
>>>> in doing anything...
>>>>
>>>> ..Steve Williams  ..
>>>>
>>>> Message: 9
>>>> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 08:57:21 -0400
>>>> From: David Lennick<dlennick at sympatico.ca>
>>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?
>>>> To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP495DF80E6A0182B6A40284BD4D0 at phx.gbl>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>>> Nope, Canada never had them. Maybe a slightly modified scroll for the
>>>> Program
>>>>> Transcriptions, but for general releases Canadian Victor stuck with
>> Batwing
>>>>> right through 1946. We were even a year late changing that to RCA
>> Victor,
>>>> we
>>>>> kept Buff Bluebird into 1939 and used the Staff label for only about six
>>>> months
>>>>> as well. The first Scroll label in Canada might have been on the lp
>> Nilsson
>>>>> Schmilsson.
>>>> dl
>>>>
>>>> On 4/3/2012 1:30 AM, Clifford Bolling wrote:
>>>>> In the U.S., Victor labels evolved from Batwing to Scroll to Ring design
>>>> for their labels.
>>>>> Did the Scroll label get skipped for Canadian pressings and go straight
>>>> from Batwing to Rings??
>>>>> I have some Canadian pressed 'HIS MASTER'S VOICE/VICTOR' label records
>>>> that I know
>>>>> were made in the 1940s that are still Batwing, but I don't recall ever
>>>> seeing Canadian Scroll design labels.
>>>>> http://PDX78s.cdbpdx.com/CanSC/
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!  CDB
>>>>