[78-L] Victor 19571, was Re: Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?

[David Lennick]

By the way, I'm pretty sure there was a regular blue label issue of 19571 in 
Canada with the Shilkret-Waring coupling. This hybrid might not have come out 
until late in the year or 1926, for all we know.

On 4/4/2012 11:24 PM, David Lennick wrote:
> For the first time, I've just played both sides of Canadian Victor 19571 right
> through, with the speed variations I referred to in the last message, i.e.
> playing both of them in F Major. And they're within a second of each other.
> Previous comments were based on distant memories. Nothing about the electrical
> side sounds like what was being recorded in Montreal in 1925 (although Canadian
> Victor made some wonderful records of bands like Harold Leonard and Fred Culley
> in 1930).
>
> For those who just tuned in, Canadian Victor 19571 was an unusual pressing,
> labelled "Not For Sale", containing acoustical and electrical versions of the
> same tune, "You And I", identified as being played by Jack Shilkret's
> Orchestra. US 19571 contained only the acoustical version, recorded January 22,
> 1925 in New York and backed with Fred Waring's "Will You Remember Me" recorded
> the following day in Camden.
>
> I'm still curious why the electrical side is recorded 3.8% below 78RPM. Having
> an acoustical matrix number, its remake wouldn't be in Rust's VMB2 (it missed
> the cutoff by 3 days or about 30 numbers), but does the EDVR at UCSB have any
> information? Just this: http://victor.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/matrix/search
>
> Matrix B-31753. You and I / Jack Shilkret Orchestra
>
> Primary TitleShow Additional Titles 	Source
> You and I 	Disc label
>
> TitleHide Additional Titles 	Source 	
> You and I (Primary title) 	Disc label
> Fox trot (Title descriptor) 	Disc label
> My girl (Work title) 	Disc label
>
> Authors and Composers 	Notes
> Harry Archer (composer) 	
>
> Composer information source: Disc label
>
> PersonnelHide Additional Performers
> 	
> Notes
> 	
> Jack Shilkret Orchestra (Musical group) 	
> Jack Shilkret (leader) 	Listed as Dir. in Victor ledgers
> LeRoy Shield (conductor) 	Take 2; listed as Dir. in Victor ledgers
>
> Primary Performer Show Additional Performers 	Notes 	
> Jack Shilkret Orchestra (Musical group) 	
>
> Description: Orchestra
> Instrumentation: 2 violins, 3 saxophones, 2 cornets, trombone, tuba, banjo,
> piano, and traps
> Category: Instrumental
> Master Size: 10-inch
> Title Note: Disc label also credits lyricist Harlan Thompson.
> Share |
> Take Date and Place
> 	
> Take
> 	Status 	Label Name/Number 	
> Format
> 	
> Note
> 	Show Issued Only
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	1 	Destroy 		
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	2 	Master 	Victor 19571 	
> 10" disc
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	2 	Master 	Gramophone 4-907 	
> 10" disc
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	2 	Master 	Gramophone 4-983 	
> 10" disc
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	2 	Master 	Gramophone (France) K-2967 	
> 10" disc
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	3 	Destroy 		
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	4 	Hold 		
> 	
>
> Take Date and Place
> 	
> Take
> 	Status 	Label Name/Number 	
> Format
> 	
> Note
> 	Show All Takes
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	
> 2
> 	Master 	Victor 19571 	
> 10" disc
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	
> 2
> 	Master 	Gramophone 4-907 	
> 10" disc
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	
> 2
> 	Master 	Gramophone 4-983 	
> 10" disc
> 	
> 1/22/1925 (New York, New York) 	
> 2
> 	Master 	Gramophone (France) K-2967 	
> 10" disc
> 	
> Nothing about a remake using the same matrix number, and I'm unable to find
> anything by looking for the title.
>
> dl
>
> On 4/4/2012 10:23 PM, David Lennick wrote:
>> On 4/4/2012 9:32 PM, Steve Williams wrote:
>>> Herbert Berliner was using Marsh Equipment?
>>
>> No, Compo pressed some Autographs for Canadian issue, including a few early
>> Jesse Crawfords. So he recorded electrically for Marsh before recording
>> acoustically for Victor.
>> I thought the type of equipment
>>> being used was never established, but that the Canadian recordings sounded
>>> better than the US Marsh stuff, even better than early Pallaphotophone.
>>> Sutton postulates that the first Victor tests, which are not documented
>>> either at Western Electric, nor as any WE or GE field test, were done by
>>> Compo.. There are only negative implications, where the Electric tests were
>>> NOT done..
>>>
>>> I have 19571, it seems to me they are the same orchestra. The electric side
>>> sounds like Jack Shilkret or the International Novelty Orchestra playing
>>> very carefully, possibly not being used to the mic and seating arrangement.
>>> However several researchers have indeed suggested the Electric was recorded
>>> in Montreal. Sound balance-wise a good comparison is with Waring's "Little
>>> Peach" recorded April 2nd for 19636, which may have been the first
>>> INTERNATIONAL Victor black label electric release, after 19626, which was
>>> only regional.  I have this record in a very clean E condition.
>>
>> I have a copy as well. The electrical side doesn't have a take number, the
>> catalogue number has a different font, and there's no other session in Rust
>> where Shilkret could have recorded it electrically, at least not in the US.
>>>
>>> Compo DID have a New York office, which probably was electrically-equipped.
>>> Also, though Victor did not have an Electric studio until March, there was a
>>> studio at Western Electric, and "You and I" may have been done there as a
>>> Western Electric demo.. The electric side sounds like early Victor; with
>>> correct mic resonance, EQ, and all. Since Victor equipment was not being
>>> used under any scenario for the electric side of 19571, then it wouldn't
>>> have to be "Victor Electric speed" thus the pitch would be off. The acoustic
>>> side of 19571 sounds like Victor acoustic, such as Jack Shilkret's "Charley
>>> My Boy" 19420.  This is all speculation, while they were alive the right
>>> people were not asked the right questions about this change to electric.
>>>
>>> ..  Steve Williams  .
>>
>> There is at least one earlier Victor electric issued to the public than 19626
>> (Buenos Aires, Shilkret, March 20/25), the Miniature Concert by the Eight
>> Popular Victor Artists..don't have the date handy but one side of it is from
>> February, if I recall.
>>
>> Here's the thing about 19571. The acoustical side plays in F (a tiny tad above
>> F, easily adjusted by taking the speed down 0.5%). The electrical side doesn't.
>> To play it in F you have to go down 3.8%. At 78 it plays closer to F# (go up
>> 2.3% and you got it). I think I prefer it in F, but that's quite a difference
>> in speed, especially for Victor. Hmm. (yes, I just checked my copy.)
>>
>> dl