[78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet

Sat Feb 26 12:37:57 PST 2011

Paul Whitman himself was a dub!!!

On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 9:35 PM, DanKj <MLK402 at verizon.net> wrote:

>   To throw in another possible variable:   Whiteman insisted on
> pre-recording all the musical numbers in King Of Jazz, so
> even the 'original' soundtrack is a dub !
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Biel" <mbiel at mbiel.com>
> To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>  Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet
>
>
> >I want to mention first that I do know, understand, and appreciate all
> > that Tim explained, but I had some specific reasons for asking the
> > questions.  In all this discussion the one set of facts that was never
> > mentioned was what the rotational speeds for the disc would be necessary
> > for such and such a pitch.  More and more I get the feeling that many
> > here are dealing with transfers of the recording, not the disc itself.
> > That would render one aspect of Tim's explanation -- that of comparing
> > with other nearby recordings -- moot.  Now, we all know (or should know)
> > that for records there were no precise speed standards, even in 1930,
> > but things were different when it comes to film soundtracks.  The
> > picture is photographed at 90 feet per minute, which translates out to
> > 24 frames per second.  This was a firm standard and was NEVER altered.
> > When the sound was recorded live on disc it was interlocked FIRMLY with
> > the camera for 33 1/3 RPM.  In this instance, the sound was recorded
> > optically and later transferred onto the disc in question.  The disc
> > would not work unless that transfer was made at 90 feet interlocked to
> > 33 1/3.  Because the Technicolor sound-on-film print could have been
> > transferred to video at 25 frames per second if done in Europe, that is
> > not a reliable reference, but the soundtrack disc is.  We do not know
> > how accurate the dub was made nor what the YouTube upload might also
> > have done to the speed, but an accurate transfer of that soundtrack disc
> > is the reference for the soundtrack unless the actual film is also
> > available  -- not a video of the film but that actual film or a film
> > print of it made without a video intermediary.  Sprocketed media, and
> > things that are interlocked with it, are a whole different ball game
> > because unless the equipment malfunctions or is purposefully re-adjusted
> > (such as in the Wizard of Oz soundtrack pre-records) it WILL run at a
> > precisely predictable speed.
> >
> > Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2/26/2011 1:15 PM, Rodger Holtin wrote:
> >> Fascinating insights from the perspective  of music theory and knowledge
> of the limitations of wind instruments.  My son
> >> the band director points this stuff out to me all the time.  "A tuba of
> that era would not have played that" etc.
> >>
> >> Thanks for the posting
> >>
> >> Rodger
> >>
> >> For Best Results use Victor Needles.
> >>
> >> .
> >>
> >> --- On Sat, 2/26/11, Tim Huskisson<timhuskisson at btinternet.com>  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Tim Huskisson<timhuskisson at btinternet.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet
> >> To: "'78-L Mail List'"<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> >> Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 7:35 AM
> >>
> >>
> >> Re. "Don Rayno notes the following keys from Grofe's arrangement:
>  C-minor /
> >> B-minor / E-flat minor"
> >>
> >> Yes, that is correct. C minor is the relative minor of Eb major. (1st
> >> Instrumental chorus), B minor is the relative minor of D major (Vocal
> verse
> >> and chorus), and Eb minor is the relative minor of Gb major. 'Relative'
> =
> >> same key signature. Just because a piece of music begins on a Minor
> chord
> >> does not mean it is in a minor key. I think Grofe would have said 'Eb
> major'
> >> and not 'C minor'. But the audible result is the same.
> >> Sorry to bore you all with Music theory. But it's important and relevant
> in
> >> this case.
> >>
> >> To answer Mike Biel's question; Compare with other sessions recorded at
> the
> >> same location, soon before or after. Check Keys, etc, and use knowledge
> of
> >> music and capabilities and limitations of musical instruments to know
> what
> >> is likely, unlikely, or impossible(!). Compare also with contemporary
> >> versions. It's worth noting that versions by Frankie Trumbauer, Jack
> Hylton,
> >> Horace Henderson, Billy Cotton, Rhythmic Eight etc, also all begin in Eb
> (C
> >> minor).
> >>
> >> The bigger point I was trying to make, was the sudden semitone drop to D
> (B
> >> minor) for the vocal chorus - which is why I think the movie soundtrack
> for
> >> this section should be fixed to this key.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Tim Huskisson
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
> >> [mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of DanKj
> >> Sent: 26 February 2011 03:40
> >> To: 78-L Mail List
> >> Subject: Re: [78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet
> >>
> >>    Don Rayno notes the following keys from Grofe's arrangement:  C-minor
> /
> >> B-minor / E-flat minor
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Michael Biel"<mbiel at mbiel.com>
> >> To: "78-L Mail List"<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> >> Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 10:11 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 2/25/2011 6:07 PM, Tim Huskisson wrote:
> >>>> I can't comment of the technicalities of the film - but the audio
> needs
> >> to
> >>>> be in the key of D (B minor - first chord of Chorus) for Bing and the
> >> Rhythm
> >>>> Boys' vocal section.
> >>>> That is the Key for the vocal section on the Columbia record version,
> and
> >> I
> >>>> doubt if the Key would have been changed by one semitone for the
> record.
> >>> How do you know what the proper speed of the Columbia record is?????
> >>>
> >>> Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com
> >>>
> >>>> That film clip usually plays in Eb (C minor), and I agree with the
> >> YouTube
> >>>> poster that it's probably too fast. But ONLY by one semitone; NOT the
> >>>> whole-tone he has ended up with on the Youtube clip.
> >>>> There may have been some confusion because the record does actually
> begin
> >> in
> >>>> Eb, and the sudden drop of one semitone to D for the verse before the
> >> vocal
> >>>> may not be so obvious to some ears. However, the film version is in
> one
> >> key
> >>>> from beginning to end of Bing's chorus, and logically the soundtrack
> to
> >> the
> >>>> film should begin in D.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards
> >>>> Tim Huskisson
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
> >>>> [mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of Michael
> Biel
> >>>> Sent: 25 February 2011 21:39
> >>>> To: 78-L Mail List
> >>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2/25/2011 2:31 PM, DanKj wrote:
> >>>>>      Now, here's a new sensation:  A Vitaphone disc from KING OF
> JAZZ,
> >> which
> >>>> someone has decided needs to be slowed down around 10% to match the
> >> picture.
> >>>> Problem is, the picture is from a surviving sound-on-film print, and
> >> isn't
> >>>> the same length that a 1930 Vitaphone print would have been.
> >>>>
> >>>> If I remember correctly, that Technicolor print was discovered in
> >>>> Europe.  Does anyone know the history of the video transfer of that
> >>>> print??  Remember, European TV is 25 Frames Per Second and they tend
> to
> >>>> transfer films at that 25 rate instead of 24.  If it was done that
> way,
> >>>> the film and track is 4% fast!  Yes that disc is a dub from the
> optical
> >>>> soundtrack, but it has to run at 33 1/3 RPM to match the 24 frames
> >>>> projection rate used in theaters.  I'd trust the disc unless there is
> an
> >>>> actual film print which could be run in a calibrated 24 frame
> projector.
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com
> >>>>>       Hear The Rhythm Boys slog through molasses, a drunken MC, and
> some
> >>>> stranger dubbing for Paul Whiteman!  You'd think this would have been
> >>>> noticed by the record's owner, but no.
> >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYDGdVvQjUY
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > 78-L mailing list
> > 78-L at klickitat.78online.com
> > http://klickitat.78online.com/mailman/listinfo/78-l
>
> _______________________________________________
> 78-L mailing list
> 78-L at klickitat.78online.com
> http://klickitat.78online.com/mailman/listinfo/78-l
>