[78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet

[Michael Biel]

On 2/26/2011 3:35 PM, DanKj wrote:
>     To throw in another possible variable:   Whiteman insisted on pre-recording all the musical numbers in King Of Jazz, so
> even the 'original' soundtrack is a dub !

This does add another variable.  While it is possible that the recording 
was made on non-sync machines, when played back in the film studio 
during photography it must be played on sync equipment for the 
performers to lip sync to.  Thus they HEAR the recording being played at 
the speed it will be heard by the audience.  The musicians would know if 
the keys are wrong!

Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Biel"<mbiel at mbiel.com>
> To: "78-L Mail List"<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet
>
>
>> I want to mention first that I do know, understand, and appreciate all
>> that Tim explained, but I had some specific reasons for asking the
>> questions.  In all this discussion the one set of facts that was never
>> mentioned was what the rotational speeds for the disc would be necessary
>> for such and such a pitch.  More and more I get the feeling that many
>> here are dealing with transfers of the recording, not the disc itself.
>> That would render one aspect of Tim's explanation -- that of comparing
>> with other nearby recordings -- moot.  Now, we all know (or should know)
>> that for records there were no precise speed standards, even in 1930,
>> but things were different when it comes to film soundtracks.  The
>> picture is photographed at 90 feet per minute, which translates out to
>> 24 frames per second.  This was a firm standard and was NEVER altered.
>> When the sound was recorded live on disc it was interlocked FIRMLY with
>> the camera for 33 1/3 RPM.  In this instance, the sound was recorded
>> optically and later transferred onto the disc in question.  The disc
>> would not work unless that transfer was made at 90 feet interlocked to
>> 33 1/3.  Because the Technicolor sound-on-film print could have been
>> transferred to video at 25 frames per second if done in Europe, that is
>> not a reliable reference, but the soundtrack disc is.  We do not know
>> how accurate the dub was made nor what the YouTube upload might also
>> have done to the speed, but an accurate transfer of that soundtrack disc
>> is the reference for the soundtrack unless the actual film is also
>> available  -- not a video of the film but that actual film or a film
>> print of it made without a video intermediary.  Sprocketed media, and
>> things that are interlocked with it, are a whole different ball game
>> because unless the equipment malfunctions or is purposefully re-adjusted
>> (such as in the Wizard of Oz soundtrack pre-records) it WILL run at a
>> precisely predictable speed.
>>
>> Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/26/2011 1:15 PM, Rodger Holtin wrote:
>>> Fascinating insights from the perspective  of music theory and knowledge of the limitations of wind instruments.  My son
>>> the band director points this stuff out to me all the time.  "A tuba of that era would not have played that" etc.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the posting
>>>
>>> Rodger
>>>
>>> For Best Results use Victor Needles.
>>>
>>> .
>>>
>>> --- On Sat, 2/26/11, Tim Huskisson<timhuskisson at btinternet.com>   wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Tim Huskisson<timhuskisson at btinternet.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet
>>> To: "'78-L Mail List'"<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>>> Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 7:35 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> Re. "Don Rayno notes the following keys from Grofe's arrangement:  C-minor /
>>> B-minor / E-flat minor"
>>>
>>> Yes, that is correct. C minor is the relative minor of Eb major. (1st
>>> Instrumental chorus), B minor is the relative minor of D major (Vocal verse
>>> and chorus), and Eb minor is the relative minor of Gb major. 'Relative' =
>>> same key signature. Just because a piece of music begins on a Minor chord
>>> does not mean it is in a minor key. I think Grofe would have said 'Eb major'
>>> and not 'C minor'. But the audible result is the same.
>>> Sorry to bore you all with Music theory. But it's important and relevant in
>>> this case.
>>>
>>> To answer Mike Biel's question; Compare with other sessions recorded at the
>>> same location, soon before or after. Check Keys, etc, and use knowledge of
>>> music and capabilities and limitations of musical instruments to know what
>>> is likely, unlikely, or impossible(!). Compare also with contemporary
>>> versions. It's worth noting that versions by Frankie Trumbauer, Jack Hylton,
>>> Horace Henderson, Billy Cotton, Rhythmic Eight etc, also all begin in Eb (C
>>> minor).
>>>
>>> The bigger point I was trying to make, was the sudden semitone drop to D (B
>>> minor) for the vocal chorus - which is why I think the movie soundtrack for
>>> this section should be fixed to this key.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Tim Huskisson
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
>>> [mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of DanKj
>>> Sent: 26 February 2011 03:40
>>> To: 78-L Mail List
>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet
>>>
>>>     Don Rayno notes the following keys from Grofe's arrangement:  C-minor /
>>> B-minor / E-flat minor
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Michael Biel"<mbiel at mbiel.com>
>>> To: "78-L Mail List"<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 10:11 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 2/25/2011 6:07 PM, Tim Huskisson wrote:
>>>>> I can't comment of the technicalities of the film - but the audio needs
>>> to
>>>>> be in the key of D (B minor - first chord of Chorus) for Bing and the
>>> Rhythm
>>>>> Boys' vocal section.
>>>>> That is the Key for the vocal section on the Columbia record version, and
>>> I
>>>>> doubt if the Key would have been changed by one semitone for the record.
>>>> How do you know what the proper speed of the Columbia record is?????
>>>>
>>>> Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com
>>>>
>>>>> That film clip usually plays in Eb (C minor), and I agree with the
>>> YouTube
>>>>> poster that it's probably too fast. But ONLY by one semitone; NOT the
>>>>> whole-tone he has ended up with on the Youtube clip.
>>>>> There may have been some confusion because the record does actually begin
>>> in
>>>>> Eb, and the sudden drop of one semitone to D for the verse before the
>>> vocal
>>>>> may not be so obvious to some ears. However, the film version is in one
>>> key
>>>>> from beginning to end of Bing's chorus, and logically the soundtrack to
>>> the
>>>>> film should begin in D.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Tim Huskisson
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
>>>>> [mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of Michael Biel
>>>>> Sent: 25 February 2011 21:39
>>>>> To: 78-L Mail List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/25/2011 2:31 PM, DanKj wrote:
>>>>>>       Now, here's a new sensation:  A Vitaphone disc from KING OF JAZZ,
>>> which
>>>>> someone has decided needs to be slowed down around 10% to match the
>>> picture.
>>>>> Problem is, the picture is from a surviving sound-on-film print, and
>>> isn't
>>>>> the same length that a 1930 Vitaphone print would have been.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I remember correctly, that Technicolor print was discovered in
>>>>> Europe.  Does anyone know the history of the video transfer of that
>>>>> print??  Remember, European TV is 25 Frames Per Second and they tend to
>>>>> transfer films at that 25 rate instead of 24.  If it was done that way,
>>>>> the film and track is 4% fast!  Yes that disc is a dub from the optical
>>>>> soundtrack, but it has to run at 33 1/3 RPM to match the 24 frames
>>>>> projection rate used in theaters.  I'd trust the disc unless there is an
>>>>> actual film print which could be run in a calibrated 24 frame projector.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com
>>>>>>        Hear The Rhythm Boys slog through molasses, a drunken MC, and some
>>>>> stranger dubbing for Paul Whiteman!  You'd think this would have been
>>>>> noticed by the record's owner, but no.
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/wat