[78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet

Sat Feb 26 12:35:16 PST 2011

   To throw in another possible variable:   Whiteman insisted on pre-recording all the musical numbers in King Of Jazz, so 
even the 'original' soundtrack is a dub !

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Biel" <mbiel at mbiel.com>
To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet

>I want to mention first that I do know, understand, and appreciate all
> that Tim explained, but I had some specific reasons for asking the
> questions.  In all this discussion the one set of facts that was never
> mentioned was what the rotational speeds for the disc would be necessary
> for such and such a pitch.  More and more I get the feeling that many
> here are dealing with transfers of the recording, not the disc itself.
> That would render one aspect of Tim's explanation -- that of comparing
> with other nearby recordings -- moot.  Now, we all know (or should know)
> that for records there were no precise speed standards, even in 1930,
> but things were different when it comes to film soundtracks.  The
> picture is photographed at 90 feet per minute, which translates out to
> 24 frames per second.  This was a firm standard and was NEVER altered.
> When the sound was recorded live on disc it was interlocked FIRMLY with
> the camera for 33 1/3 RPM.  In this instance, the sound was recorded
> optically and later transferred onto the disc in question.  The disc
> would not work unless that transfer was made at 90 feet interlocked to
> 33 1/3.  Because the Technicolor sound-on-film print could have been
> transferred to video at 25 frames per second if done in Europe, that is
> not a reliable reference, but the soundtrack disc is.  We do not know
> how accurate the dub was made nor what the YouTube upload might also
> have done to the speed, but an accurate transfer of that soundtrack disc
> is the reference for the soundtrack unless the actual film is also
> available  -- not a video of the film but that actual film or a film
> print of it made without a video intermediary.  Sprocketed media, and
> things that are interlocked with it, are a whole different ball game
> because unless the equipment malfunctions or is purposefully re-adjusted
> (such as in the Wizard of Oz soundtrack pre-records) it WILL run at a
> precisely predictable speed.
>
> Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com
>
>
>
> On 2/26/2011 1:15 PM, Rodger Holtin wrote:
>> Fascinating insights from the perspective  of music theory and knowledge of the limitations of wind instruments.  My son 
>> the band director points this stuff out to me all the time.  "A tuba of that era would not have played that" etc.
>>
>> Thanks for the posting
>>
>> Rodger
>>
>> For Best Results use Victor Needles.
>>
>> .
>>
>> --- On Sat, 2/26/11, Tim Huskisson<timhuskisson at btinternet.com>  wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Tim Huskisson<timhuskisson at btinternet.com>
>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet
>> To: "'78-L Mail List'"<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>> Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 7:35 AM
>>
>>
>> Re. "Don Rayno notes the following keys from Grofe's arrangement:  C-minor /
>> B-minor / E-flat minor"
>>
>> Yes, that is correct. C minor is the relative minor of Eb major. (1st
>> Instrumental chorus), B minor is the relative minor of D major (Vocal verse
>> and chorus), and Eb minor is the relative minor of Gb major. 'Relative' =
>> same key signature. Just because a piece of music begins on a Minor chord
>> does not mean it is in a minor key. I think Grofe would have said 'Eb major'
>> and not 'C minor'. But the audible result is the same.
>> Sorry to bore you all with Music theory. But it's important and relevant in
>> this case.
>>
>> To answer Mike Biel's question; Compare with other sessions recorded at the
>> same location, soon before or after. Check Keys, etc, and use knowledge of
>> music and capabilities and limitations of musical instruments to know what
>> is likely, unlikely, or impossible(!). Compare also with contemporary
>> versions. It's worth noting that versions by Frankie Trumbauer, Jack Hylton,
>> Horace Henderson, Billy Cotton, Rhythmic Eight etc, also all begin in Eb (C
>> minor).
>>
>> The bigger point I was trying to make, was the sudden semitone drop to D (B
>> minor) for the vocal chorus - which is why I think the movie soundtrack for
>> this section should be fixed to this key.
>>
>> Regards
>> Tim Huskisson
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
>> [mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of DanKj
>> Sent: 26 February 2011 03:40
>> To: 78-L Mail List
>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet
>>
>>    Don Rayno notes the following keys from Grofe's arrangement:  C-minor /
>> B-minor / E-flat minor
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Biel"<mbiel at mbiel.com>
>> To: "78-L Mail List"<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>> Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 10:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet
>>
>>
>>> On 2/25/2011 6:07 PM, Tim Huskisson wrote:
>>>> I can't comment of the technicalities of the film - but the audio needs
>> to
>>>> be in the key of D (B minor - first chord of Chorus) for Bing and the
>> Rhythm
>>>> Boys' vocal section.
>>>> That is the Key for the vocal section on the Columbia record version, and
>> I
>>>> doubt if the Key would have been changed by one semitone for the record.
>>> How do you know what the proper speed of the Columbia record is?????
>>>
>>> Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com
>>>
>>>> That film clip usually plays in Eb (C minor), and I agree with the
>> YouTube
>>>> poster that it's probably too fast. But ONLY by one semitone; NOT the
>>>> whole-tone he has ended up with on the Youtube clip.
>>>> There may have been some confusion because the record does actually begin
>> in
>>>> Eb, and the sudden drop of one semitone to D for the verse before the
>> vocal
>>>> may not be so obvious to some ears. However, the film version is in one
>> key
>>>> from beginning to end of Bing's chorus, and logically the soundtrack to
>> the
>>>> film should begin in D.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Tim Huskisson
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
>>>> [mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of Michael Biel
>>>> Sent: 25 February 2011 21:39
>>>> To: 78-L Mail List
>>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Speeds and Somewhat Less Than Happy Feet
>>>>
>>>> On 2/25/2011 2:31 PM, DanKj wrote:
>>>>>      Now, here's a new sensation:  A Vitaphone disc from KING OF JAZZ,
>> which
>>>> someone has decided needs to be slowed down around 10% to match the
>> picture.
>>>> Problem is, the picture is from a surviving sound-on-film print, and
>> isn't
>>>> the same length that a 1930 Vitaphone print would have been.
>>>>
>>>> If I remember correctly, that Technicolor print was discovered in
>>>> Europe.  Does anyone know the history of the video transfer of that
>>>> print??  Remember, European TV is 25 Frames Per Second and they tend to
>>>> transfer films at that 25 rate instead of 24.  If it was done that way,
>>>> the film and track is 4% fast!  Yes that disc is a dub from the optical
>>>> soundtrack, but it has to run at 33 1/3 RPM to match the 24 frames
>>>> projection rate used in theaters.  I'd trust the disc unless there is an
>>>> actual film print which could be run in a calibrated 24 frame projector.
>>>>
>>>> Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com
>>>>>       Hear The Rhythm Boys slog through molasses, a drunken MC, and some
>>>> stranger dubbing for Paul Whiteman!  You'd think this would have been
>>>> noticed by the record's owner, but no.
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYDGdVvQjUY
>
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