[78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia [FWD][correction]

Mike Harkin xxm.harkin at yahoo.com
Mon Dec 6 00:47:41 PST 2010 

The second date should be 1927, of course.Connexion between fingerrs and brain seems to be getting increasingly tenuous....

m in p

--- On Mon, 12/6/10, Mike Harkin <xxm.harkin at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Mike Harkin <xxm.harkin at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia  [FWD]
> To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Date: Monday, December 6, 2010, 8:27 AM


> Query:  In 1948 how many `917
> recordings remained in the catalogue?  Not many, I
> should think, what with the war and all....
> 
> Mike in Plovdiv
> 
> --- On Sun, 12/5/10, Matthew Duncan <recordgeek334578 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > From: Matthew Duncan <recordgeek334578 at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> > To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> > Date: Sunday, December 5, 2010, 5:26 PM
> > The only 40s issues of earlier works
> > by Columbia I have seen do have the 80rpm 
> > speed on them, so for example in 1948 if you bought a
> 12"
> > classical disc pressed 
> > the year before (but contained a piece done in 1927 at
> the
> > 80rpm speed) it would 
> > have 80rpm on the label.
> > 
> > I'm guessing this would be the same for other
> examples, I
> > see no reason why they 
> > would label others up at 78rpm and some at 80rpm.
> > 
> > Matthew.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: Philip Carli <Philip_Carli at pittsford.monroe.edu>
> > To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> > Sent: Sun, 5 December, 2010 17:20:15
> > Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> > 
> > I had been thinking of "Even bravest heart" just this
> > morning! Thanks for that 
> > Damian. And one or two other things; 1) whatever you
> think
> > of Chorley, Fred E. 
> > Weatherly (I think he did the first _Pagliacci_
> > translation) or Basil Hood (who 
> > did _The Merry Widow_ English libretto heard 'round
> the
> > world -- and it's closer 
> > to the original German than most), their translations
> were
> > culturally closer in 
> > spirit to the original librettists than modern ones. 
> 2)
> > Is there anything 
> > really risible about hearing Vilhelm Hansen sing
> _Tosca_ in
> > Danish? I've got 
> > that -- it's not Italian, but it's expressive
> singing,
> > pretty potently played 
> > orchestrally, I enjoy it and I don't know Danish, so
> maybe
> > language unfamilarity 
> > is a component. 3) David, there's a whole world of
> opera in
> > English before 
> > Menotti that you might not find vocally sickening.
> > Sometimes poetically and 
> > dramatically questionable (well, that goes with
> opera,
> > right?), but musically 
> > fluent and enjoyable at the very least. And I remem
> > ber you transferred one of the best for commercial
> release
> > about fifteen years 
> > ago -- a piece often called an operetta, but never by
> its
> > creators.
> > 
> > And finally to get things back to the original
> inquiry,
> > some of the Percy Pitt 
> > BBC Wireless Symphony Orchestra records, all recorded
> in
> > the late 20s at 80 rpm, 
> > stayed in the catalogue until the early 1940s
> relabelled
> > "BBC Symphony 
> > Orchestra", but I don't know if any there was any
> label
> > indication of the 
> > increased speed on the late issues.
> > 
> > PC
> > ________________________________________
> > From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
> > [78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com]
> > 
> > On Behalf Of Damian's 78s [damians78s at damians78s.co.uk]
> > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 11:40 AM
> > To: 78-L Mail List
> > Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> > 
> > I'd tend to agree with Philip - having listened to a
> great
> > many English
> > language operatic recordings (and attended quite a
> few
> > English language
> > opera performances) does allow one to listen through
> the
> > translated text. As
> > well as English National Opera, there are still a
> number of
> > smaller
> > companies here in the UK that perform opera in
> English.
> > These tend to be in
> > more modern translations. However, the older (first)
> > translations into
> > English of many operas are very much of their time
> (and not
> > necessarily good
> > poetry). The same can, of course, hold true for the
> > original libretti.
> > Opera in English is still looked down on by many. But
> for
> > me, for example,
> > it niggles that when Valentin's aria from Gounod's
> Faust is
> > sung as a
> > concert piece, it tends to be in French. It was
> written, of
> > course, for
> > Charles Santley, to an English text by Chorley (Even
> > bravest heart) who
> > provided the standard English translation of the
> work.
> > 
> > As regards Bransby Williams, he's very entertaining,
> > particularly in his
> > Dickensian characters. Keep an eye on my website for
> a
> > number of his
> > recordings (from 1908 to 1933) in a few weeks time.
> > 
> > Damian Rogan
> > www.damians78s.co.uk
> > 
> > 
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > From: "David Lennick" <dlennick at sympatico.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 5:00 AM
> > To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> > Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> > 
> > > I think we're pretty much on target here,
> > actually..and I also can't
> > > understand
> > > the reverence accorded Leonard Bernstein (I have
> > strong opinions about
> > > that
> > > man, who I think should have been charged with
> murder
> > as well as wholesale
> > > thievery..would have made a great 3-part series
> on Law
> > & Order, the
> > > derivative
> > > composer who tormented his wife). But the
> original
> > question was about the
> > > recording speed and the matrix numbers at the
> point
> > where English Columbia
> > > might have changed from 80 to 78. I tossed in a
> > gratuitous opinion based
> > > on my
> > > opinion of this performance and old-time Opera
> In
> > English, and to expand
> > > it
> > > beyond the original two words (as we seem to
> have
> > done) would have changed
> > > the
> > > topic (as we seem to have done).
> > >
> > > I like Harold Williams, can live without Evan
> > Williams, just happened to
> > > hear
> > > Bransby Williams (age 82).
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > David
> > >
> > > On 12/4/2010 11:49 PM, Philip Carli wrote:
> > >> Dear David -- I've never found a flat
> two-word
> > descriptive like "pretty
> > >> awful" very informative or
> considered-sounding as
> > an opinion. It just
> > >> sounds like a toss-off.  I thought
> > opinions&  criticism had got past such
> > >> statements that tend to crush discussion;
> hence
> > what appears to be my
> > >> "jumping down throats" in my reply.  It's
> not
> > helpful, is it?  The
> > >> recording itself is not "pretty awful";
> _you_ 
> > find it pretty awful, and
> > >> that's more to the point.  (I'd go through
> life
> > happily never hearing
> > >> another note of Mahler, or anything composed
> or
> > conducted by Leonard
> > >> Bernstein, but those are truly personal
> tastes and
> > I'm willing to
> > >> consider changing them some day.)  Make it
> > clearly a personal statement
> > >> rather than a graven-in-stone dictum.
> > >>
> > >> And as to opera in English translation
> sounding
> > ludicrous, it is a matter
> > >> of culture, taste, and historical
> perspective.  I
> > have dozens of
> > >> recordings of operatic arias and entire works
> in
> > translations from their
> > >> original languages; who's to say those are
> > ludicrous (except, perhaps, in
> > >> the case of the French _Le Favorite_ being
> turned
> > into _La Favorita_,
> > >> where the Italian version makes demonstrably
> > dramaturgical nonsense of
> > >> the original)?  Who in modern poetic
> Italian
> > would ever utter "Infelice!
> > >> e tuo credevi"?  And o.k., we usually hear
> > "M'appari" rather than "Ach,
> > >> so fromm".  Which do we tee-hee? (And should
> we
> > badger singers into the
> > >> impenetrabilities of Czech to sing _Rusalka_
> or
> > _Prodana nevesta_
> > >> "correctly" or give them serviceable German,
> as
> > was the 19th century
> > >> custom,  or -- dare I say it? -- English
> versions
> > to sing so we can hear
> > >> them at all?  I heard the American premiere
> of
> > _Rusalka_ as a child in
> > >> San Diego and again at the English National
> Opera
> > 12 years ago -
> > > - b
> > >>  oth in English.)
> > >>
> > >> If you're at all interested (and you can skip
> this
> > if you like), the
> > >> _Pagliacci_ set is, to my ear, rather well
> > conducted; hardly sluggish;
> > >> the orchestra is a good cross-section of
> > better-class (but not
> > >> absolute-top) 1920s London orchestral
> playing
> > (which was often a real
> > >> gamble, but more characterful than German and
> more
> > precise than Italian),
> > >> with some fire and style.  (I actually tend
> to
> > prefer not-quite-perfect
> > >> playing to sterile perfection; more character
> and
> > insight into what the
> > >> musicians are doing.)  Mullings is
> impassioned
> > but perhaps hard to like,
> > >> and that's really rather interesting as he
> was
> > such a commanding figure
> > >> at the time and maybe _we're_ missing
> something. 
> > Licette's light but
> > >> pleasant, I can't fault Nash (he hasn't much
> to
> > do) and Williams is solid
> > >> and reliable, and sometimes really thrilling,
> but
> > in the English style --
> > >> which may be the unattractive thing with the
> set
> > overall for many people.
> > >> I got into a discussion on Evan Williams with
> an
> > English c
> > > oll
> > >>  eague (I being anti-Williams), and I went
> back
> > to the records and
> > >> realized I was coming at his style the wrong
> way.
> > The translation is the
> > >> original, and many companies (including the
> Carl
> > Rosa) used it to
> > >> popularize the piece.  Give the floweriness
> the
> > leeway of its period, as
> > >> I daresay an Italian would argue for
> Leoncavallo's
> > own text.  The set is
> > >> a document of an interesting time in British
> > opera, when the Old Vic was
> > >> also doing opera in English to working-class
> > audiences (there's a nice H.
> > >> V. Morton piece on that), the Carl Rosa was
> > performing everywhere from
> > >> Hell to Huddersfield, and English Columbia
> decided
> > to expend substantial
> > >> trouble in making the UK's first electrical
> > complete opera sets for a
> > >> yet-untested public.
> > >>
> > >> These are _my_ opinions, and they are only
> that.
> > And I do jump!
> > >>
> > >> Philip
> > >> ________________________________________
> > >> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
> > >> [78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com]
> > On Behalf Of David Lennick
> > >> [dlennick at sympatico.ca]
> > >> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 10:20 PM
> > >> To: 78-L Mail List
> > >> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British
> > Columbia
> > >>
> > >> Sorry, Philip. I've heard the set and if you
> > prefer idiosyncratic, fine.
> > >> I
> > >> transferred it and hoped I'd never have to
> listen
> > to it again. As for the
> > >> conductor, my error, it's Eugene Goossens
> Senior.
> > I was looking at a
> > >> photocopy
> > >> of the album's liner and missed the "Snr".
> Why are
> > you jumping down my
> > >> throat
> > >> over a legitimate opinion which have been
> echoed
> > on this list? Good
> > >> singers,
> > >> bad concept. Opera in English was something
> > considered a necessity at one
> > >> point
> > >> and may still have its defenders, but even
> you'd
> > have to admit that it
> > >> can
> > >> sound pretty ludicrous.
> > >>
> > >> dl
> > >>
> > >> On 12/4/2010 9:54 PM, Philip Carli wrote:
> > >>> What a cheap dismissive comment. I have
> this
> > set and the recent
> > >>> excellent CD transfer done in the UK and
> it's
> > certainly idiosyncratic,
> > >>> but not  just unthinkingly "pretty
> awful".
> > And which Goossens is it?
> > >>> And which translation? And what's the
> history
> > of the set? And why is it
> > >>> important (yes, it is)? I throw these
> out
> > because I get annoyed at flip
> > >>> judgments.
> > >>> ________________________________________
> > >>> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
> > >>> [78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com]
> > On Behalf Of David Lennick
> > >>> [dlennick at sympatico.ca]
> > >>> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 7:16
> PM
> > >>> To: 78-L Mail List
> > >>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on
> British
> > Columbia
> > >>>
> > >>> I've had this set..I may still have it
> (don't
> > see it on the shelf) but I
> > >>> held
> > >>> onto the information. Matrix numbers are
> > between WA 4999 and 5062.
> > >>> Features
> > >>> Heddle Nash, Miriam Licette, Dennis
> Noble,
> > Frank Mullings and Harold
> > >>> Williams,
> > >>> conducted by Eugene Goossens, and as I
> recall
> > it's pretty awful.
> > >>>
> > >>> dl
> > >>>
> > >>> On 12/4/2010 6:25 PM, Royal Pemberton
> wrote:
> > >>>> I wonder if they were any more or
> less
> > consistent with that speed
> > >>>> specification compared with other
> labels
> > of the time?  Somewhere in the
> > >>>> archives of 78-L one can find the
> exact
> > matrix number at which UK
> > >>>> Columbia's
> > >>>> standard speed became 78 (IIRC it was
> some
> > time in 1927).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 3:19 AM,
> Steven C.
> > >>>> Barr<stevenc at interlinks.net>wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> From: "Glenn Longwell"<glongwell at snet.net>
> > >>>>>> I had someone write to me
> through
> > my website asking if I was
> > >>>>>> interested
> > >>>>> in
> > >>>>>> a 12 record set in a binder
> by the
> > British National Opera Company
> > >>>>>> performing Pagliacci. He's
> located
> > in the UK so shipping would be a
> > >>>>>> bit
> > >>>>>> prohibitive to get it to me
> in the
> > US. What struck me funny about the
> > >>>>>> set
> > >>>>>> when I looked at the pictures
> was
> > the speed was listed as 80rpm. Is
> > >>>>>> this
> > >>>>>> indicative of a certain time
> > period for British Columbias? I only
> > >>>>>> have
> > >>>>> one
> > >>>>>> British Columbia of that
> label
> > type in my collection and just looked
> > >>>>>> at
> > >>>>>> it. Never noticed but it also
> says
> > 80rpm.
> > >>>>> Anyone interested in this set?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> During the early-mid twenties,
> British
> > Columbia cited their speed as
> > >>>>> 80
> > >>>>> rpm!
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Steven C. Barr
> > >>>>>
> > >>
> _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
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