[78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia [FWD]

[Mike Harkin]

Query:  In 1948 how many `917 recordings remained in the catalogue?  Not many, I should think, what with the war and all....

Mike in Plovdiv

--- On Sun, 12/5/10, Matthew Duncan <recordgeek334578 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Matthew Duncan <recordgeek334578 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Date: Sunday, December 5, 2010, 5:26 PM
> The only 40s issues of earlier works
> by Columbia I have seen do have the 80rpm 
> speed on them, so for example in 1948 if you bought a 12"
> classical disc pressed 
> the year before (but contained a piece done in 1927 at the
> 80rpm speed) it would 
> have 80rpm on the label.
> 
> I'm guessing this would be the same for other examples, I
> see no reason why they 
> would label others up at 78rpm and some at 80rpm.
> 
> Matthew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Philip Carli <Philip_Carli at pittsford.monroe.edu>
> To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Sent: Sun, 5 December, 2010 17:20:15
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> 
> I had been thinking of "Even bravest heart" just this
> morning! Thanks for that 
> Damian. And one or two other things; 1) whatever you think
> of Chorley, Fred E. 
> Weatherly (I think he did the first _Pagliacci_
> translation) or Basil Hood (who 
> did _The Merry Widow_ English libretto heard 'round the
> world -- and it's closer 
> to the original German than most), their translations were
> culturally closer in 
> spirit to the original librettists than modern ones.  2)
> Is there anything 
> really risible about hearing Vilhelm Hansen sing _Tosca_ in
> Danish? I've got 
> that -- it's not Italian, but it's expressive singing,
> pretty potently played 
> orchestrally, I enjoy it and I don't know Danish, so maybe
> language unfamilarity 
> is a component. 3) David, there's a whole world of opera in
> English before 
> Menotti that you might not find vocally sickening.
> Sometimes poetically and 
> dramatically questionable (well, that goes with opera,
> right?), but musically 
> fluent and enjoyable at the very least. And I remem
> ber you transferred one of the best for commercial release
> about fifteen years 
> ago -- a piece often called an operetta, but never by its
> creators.
> 
> And finally to get things back to the original inquiry,
> some of the Percy Pitt 
> BBC Wireless Symphony Orchestra records, all recorded in
> the late 20s at 80 rpm, 
> stayed in the catalogue until the early 1940s relabelled
> "BBC Symphony 
> Orchestra", but I don't know if any there was any label
> indication of the 
> increased speed on the late issues.
> 
> PC
> ________________________________________
> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
> [78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com]
> 
> On Behalf Of Damian's 78s [damians78s at damians78s.co.uk]
> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 11:40 AM
> To: 78-L Mail List
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> 
> I'd tend to agree with Philip - having listened to a great
> many English
> language operatic recordings (and attended quite a few
> English language
> opera performances) does allow one to listen through the
> translated text. As
> well as English National Opera, there are still a number of
> smaller
> companies here in the UK that perform opera in English.
> These tend to be in
> more modern translations. However, the older (first)
> translations into
> English of many operas are very much of their time (and not
> necessarily good
> poetry). The same can, of course, hold true for the
> original libretti.
> Opera in English is still looked down on by many. But for
> me, for example,
> it niggles that when Valentin's aria from Gounod's Faust is
> sung as a
> concert piece, it tends to be in French. It was written, of
> course, for
> Charles Santley, to an English text by Chorley (Even
> bravest heart) who
> provided the standard English translation of the work.
> 
> As regards Bransby Williams, he's very entertaining,
> particularly in his
> Dickensian characters. Keep an eye on my website for a
> number of his
> recordings (from 1908 to 1933) in a few weeks time.
> 
> Damian Rogan
> www.damians78s.co.uk
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "David Lennick" <dlennick at sympatico.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 5:00 AM
> To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> 
> > I think we're pretty much on target here,
> actually..and I also can't
> > understand
> > the reverence accorded Leonard Bernstein (I have
> strong opinions about
> > that
> > man, who I think should have been charged with murder
> as well as wholesale
> > thievery..would have made a great 3-part series on Law
> & Order, the
> > derivative
> > composer who tormented his wife). But the original
> question was about the
> > recording speed and the matrix numbers at the point
> where English Columbia
> > might have changed from 80 to 78. I tossed in a
> gratuitous opinion based
> > on my
> > opinion of this performance and old-time Opera In
> English, and to expand
> > it
> > beyond the original two words (as we seem to have
> done) would have changed
> > the
> > topic (as we seem to have done).
> >
> > I like Harold Williams, can live without Evan
> Williams, just happened to
> > hear
> > Bransby Williams (age 82).
> >
> > Cheers
> > David
> >
> > On 12/4/2010 11:49 PM, Philip Carli wrote:
> >> Dear David -- I've never found a flat two-word
> descriptive like "pretty
> >> awful" very informative or considered-sounding as
> an opinion. It just
> >> sounds like a toss-off.  I thought
> opinions&  criticism had got past such
> >> statements that tend to crush discussion; hence
> what appears to be my
> >> "jumping down throats" in my reply.  It's not
> helpful, is it?  The
> >> recording itself is not "pretty awful"; _you_ 
> find it pretty awful, and
> >> that's more to the point.  (I'd go through life
> happily never hearing
> >> another note of Mahler, or anything composed or
> conducted by Leonard
> >> Bernstein, but those are truly personal tastes and
> I'm willing to
> >> consider changing them some day.)  Make it
> clearly a personal statement
> >> rather than a graven-in-stone dictum.
> >>
> >> And as to opera in English translation sounding
> ludicrous, it is a matter
> >> of culture, taste, and historical perspective.  I
> have dozens of
> >> recordings of operatic arias and entire works in
> translations from their
> >> original languages; who's to say those are
> ludicrous (except, perhaps, in
> >> the case of the French _Le Favorite_ being turned
> into _La Favorita_,
> >> where the Italian version makes demonstrably
> dramaturgical nonsense of
> >> the original)?  Who in modern poetic Italian
> would ever utter "Infelice!
> >> e tuo credevi"?  And o.k., we usually hear
> "M'appari" rather than "Ach,
> >> so fromm".  Which do we tee-hee? (And should we
> badger singers into the
> >> impenetrabilities of Czech to sing _Rusalka_ or
> _Prodana nevesta_
> >> "correctly" or give them serviceable German, as
> was the 19th century
> >> custom,  or -- dare I say it? -- English versions
> to sing so we can hear
> >> them at all?  I heard the American premiere of
> _Rusalka_ as a child in
> >> San Diego and again at the English National Opera
> 12 years ago -
> > - b
> >>  oth in English.)
> >>
> >> If you're at all interested (and you can skip this
> if you like), the
> >> _Pagliacci_ set is, to my ear, rather well
> conducted; hardly sluggish;
> >> the orchestra is a good cross-section of
> better-class (but not
> >> absolute-top) 1920s London orchestral playing
> (which was often a real
> >> gamble, but more characterful than German and more
> precise than Italian),
> >> with some fire and style.  (I actually tend to
> prefer not-quite-perfect
> >> playing to sterile perfection; more character and
> insight into what the
> >> musicians are doing.)  Mullings is impassioned
> but perhaps hard to like,
> >> and that's really rather interesting as he was
> such a commanding figure
> >> at the time and maybe _we're_ missing something. 
> Licette's light but
> >> pleasant, I can't fault Nash (he hasn't much to
> do) and Williams is solid
> >> and reliable, and sometimes really thrilling, but
> in the English style --
> >> which may be the unattractive thing with the set
> overall for many people.
> >> I got into a discussion on Evan Williams with an
> English c
> > oll
> >>  eague (I being anti-Williams), and I went back
> to the records and
> >> realized I was coming at his style the wrong way.
> The translation is the
> >> original, and many companies (including the Carl
> Rosa) used it to
> >> popularize the piece.  Give the floweriness the
> leeway of its period, as
> >> I daresay an Italian would argue for Leoncavallo's
> own text.  The set is
> >> a document of an interesting time in British
> opera, when the Old Vic was
> >> also doing opera in English to working-class
> audiences (there's a nice H.
> >> V. Morton piece on that), the Carl Rosa was
> performing everywhere from
> >> Hell to Huddersfield, and English Columbia decided
> to expend substantial
> >> trouble in making the UK's first electrical
> complete opera sets for a
> >> yet-untested public.
> >>
> >> These are _my_ opinions, and they are only that.
> And I do jump!
> >>
> >> Philip
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
> >> [78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com]
> On Behalf Of David Lennick
> >> [dlennick at sympatico.ca]
> >> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 10:20 PM
> >> To: 78-L Mail List
> >> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British
> Columbia
> >>
> >> Sorry, Philip. I've heard the set and if you
> prefer idiosyncratic, fine.
> >> I
> >> transferred it and hoped I'd never have to listen
> to it again. As for the
> >> conductor, my error, it's Eugene Goossens Senior.
> I was looking at a
> >> photocopy
> >> of the album's liner and missed the "Snr". Why are
> you jumping down my
> >> throat
> >> over a legitimate opinion which have been echoed
> on this list? Good
> >> singers,
> >> bad concept. Opera in English was something
> considered a necessity at one
> >> point
> >> and may still have its defenders, but even you'd
> have to admit that it
> >> can
> >> sound pretty ludicrous.
> >>
> >> dl
> >>
> >> On 12/4/2010 9:54 PM, Philip Carli wrote:
> >>> What a cheap dismissive comment. I have this
> set and the recent
> >>> excellent CD transfer done in the UK and it's
> certainly idiosyncratic,
> >>> but not  just unthinkingly "pretty awful".
> And which Goossens is it?
> >>> And which translation? And what's the history
> of the set? And why is it
> >>> important (yes, it is)? I throw these out
> because I get annoyed at flip
> >>> judgments.
> >>> ________________________________________
> >>> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
> >>> [78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com]
> On Behalf Of David Lennick
> >>> [dlennick at sympatico.ca]
> >>> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 7:16 PM
> >>> To: 78-L Mail List
> >>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British
> Columbia
> >>>
> >>> I've had this set..I may still have it (don't
> see it on the shelf) but I
> >>> held
> >>> onto the information. Matrix numbers are
> between WA 4999 and 5062.
> >>> Features
> >>> Heddle Nash, Miriam Licette, Dennis Noble,
> Frank Mullings and Harold
> >>> Williams,
> >>> conducted by Eugene Goossens, and as I recall
> it's pretty awful.
> >>>
> >>> dl
> >>>
> >>> On 12/4/2010 6:25 PM, Royal Pemberton wrote:
> >>>> I wonder if they were any more or less
> consistent with that speed
> >>>> specification compared with other labels
> of the time?  Somewhere in the
> >>>> archives of 78-L one can find the exact
> matrix number at which UK
> >>>> Columbia's
> >>>> standard speed became 78 (IIRC it was some
> time in 1927).
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 3:19 AM, Steven C.
> >>>> Barr<stevenc at interlinks.net>wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> From: "Glenn Longwell"<glongwell at snet.net>
> >>>>>> I had someone write to me through
> my website asking if I was
> >>>>>> interested
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>> a 12 record set in a binder by the
> British National Opera Company
> >>>>>> performing Pagliacci. He's located
> in the UK so shipping would be a
> >>>>>> bit
> >>>>>> prohibitive to get it to me in the
> US. What struck me funny about the
> >>>>>> set
> >>>>>> when I looked at the pictures was
> the speed was listed as 80rpm. Is
> >>>>>> this
> >>>>>> indicative of a certain time
> period for British Columbias? I only
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>> one
> >>>>>> British Columbia of that label
> type in my collection and just looked
> >>>>>> at
> >>>>>> it. Never noticed but it also says
> 80rpm.
> >>>>> Anyone interested in this set?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> During the early-mid twenties, British
> Columbia cited their speed as
> >>>>> 80
> >>>>> rpm!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Steven C. Barr
> >>>>>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
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