[78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia [FWD]

[Matthew Duncan]

Hi

Quite alot of 1900 to 1930 records (especially opera) turn up along with 40s and 
50s ones of the same music when I see them in junk shops etc in England ... all 
from the same original owner.  It is my belief that some remained in the 
catalogues and some were still available later...record shops who got records 
delivered to them in 1920 or 25 or earlier would still have them in the store 
room or basement in the 40s or 50s if there were any copies that hadn't sold...

There was a record shop in my town that did this...if you went in the shop in 
the 50s and asked for a record and they had it ...they'd sell it to you - simple 
as that - so if you asked for a Caruso or BBC Symph Orch item or whatever from 
pre-1930, even a single sided record and they had it, you would get it - whether 
it was in the catalogue or not...I guess alot of shops wouldn't have returned 
records that were deleted from catalogues.

People would have encountered 80rpm records when buying used records - 'record 
libraries' and other means of obtaining used records sprang up in England after 
WW2 and were successful due to people's lack of funds.  


Just some thoughts.
Matthew.




________________________________
From: Mike Harkin <xxm.harkin at yahoo.com>
To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
Sent: Mon, 6 December, 2010 8:27:35
Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia [FWD]

Query:  In 1948 how many `917 recordings remained in the catalogue?  Not many, I 
should think, what with the war and all....

Mike in Plovdiv

--- On Sun, 12/5/10, Matthew Duncan <recordgeek334578 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Matthew Duncan <recordgeek334578 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Date: Sunday, December 5, 2010, 5:26 PM
> The only 40s issues of earlier works
> by Columbia I have seen do have the 80rpm 
> speed on them, so for example in 1948 if you bought a 12"
> classical disc pressed 
> the year before (but contained a piece done in 1927 at the
> 80rpm speed) it would 
> have 80rpm on the label.
> 
> I'm guessing this would be the same for other examples, I
> see no reason why they 
> would label others up at 78rpm and some at 80rpm.
> 
> Matthew.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Philip Carli <Philip_Carli at pittsford.monroe.edu>
> To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Sent: Sun, 5 December, 2010 17:20:15
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> 
> I had been thinking of "Even bravest heart" just this
> morning! Thanks for that 
> Damian. And one or two other things; 1) whatever you think
> of Chorley, Fred E. 
> Weatherly (I think he did the first _Pagliacci_
> translation) or Basil Hood (who 
> did _The Merry Widow_ English libretto heard 'round the
> world -- and it's closer 
> to the original German than most), their translations were
> culturally closer in 
> spirit to the original librettists than modern ones.  2)
> Is there anything 
> really risible about hearing Vilhelm Hansen sing _Tosca_ in
> Danish? I've got 
> that -- it's not Italian, but it's expressive singing,
> pretty potently played 
> orchestrally, I enjoy it and I don't know Danish, so maybe
> language unfamilarity 
> is a component. 3) David, there's a whole world of opera in
> English before 
> Menotti that you might not find vocally sickening.
> Sometimes poetically and 
> dramatically questionable (well, that goes with opera,
> right?), but musically 
> fluent and enjoyable at the very least. And I remem
> ber you transferred one of the best for commercial release
> about fifteen years 
> ago -- a piece often called an operetta, but never by its
> creators.
> 
> And finally to get things back to the original inquiry,
> some of the Percy Pitt 
> BBC Wireless Symphony Orchestra records, all recorded in
> the late 20s at 80 rpm, 
> stayed in the catalogue until the early 1940s relabelled
> "BBC Symphony 
> Orchestra", but I don't know if any there was any label
> indication of the 
> increased speed on the late issues.
> 
> PC
> ________________________________________
> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
> [78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com]
> 
> On Behalf Of Damian's 78s [damians78s at damians78s.co.uk]
> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 11:40 AM
> To: 78-L Mail List
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> 
> I'd tend to agree with Philip - having listened to a great
> many English
> language operatic recordings (and attended quite a few
> English language
> opera performances) does allow one to listen through the
> translated text. As
> well as English National Opera, there are still a number of
> smaller
> companies here in the UK that perform opera in English.
> These tend to be in
> more modern translations. However, the older (first)
> translations into
> English of many operas are very much of their time (and not
> necessarily good
> poetry). The same can, of course, hold true for the
> original libretti.
> Opera in English is still looked down on by many. But for
> me, for example,
> it niggles that when Valentin's aria from Gounod's Faust is
> sung as a
> concert piece, it tends to be in French. It was written, of
> course, for
> Charles Santley, to an English text by Chorley (Even
> bravest heart) who
> provided the standard English translation of the work.
> 
> As regards Bransby Williams, he's very entertaining,
> particularly in his
> Dickensian characters. Keep an eye on my website for a
> number of his
> recordings (from 1908 to 1933) in a few weeks time.
> 
> Damian Rogan
> www.damians78s.co.uk
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "David Lennick" <dlennick at sympatico.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 5:00 AM
> To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> 
> > I think we're pretty much on target here,
> actually..and I also can't
> > understand
> > the reverence accorded Leonard Bernstein (I have
> strong opinions about
> > that
> > man, who I think should have been charged with murder
> as well as wholesale
> > thievery..would have made a great 3-part series on Law
> & Order, the
> > derivative
> > composer who tormented his wife). But the original
> question was about the
> > recording speed and the matrix numbers at the point
> where English Columbia
> > might have changed from 80 to 78. I tossed in a
> gratuitous opinion based
> > on my
> > opinion of this performance and old-time Opera In
> English, and to expand
> > it
> > beyond the original two words (as we seem to have
> done) would have changed
> > the
> > topic (as we seem to have done).
> >
> > I like Harold Williams, can live without Evan
> Williams, just happened to
> > hear
> > Bransby Williams (age 82).
> >
> > Cheers
> > David
> >
> > On 12/4/2010 11:49 PM, Philip Carli wrote:
> >> Dear David -- I've never found a flat two-word
> descriptive like "pretty
> >> awful" very informative or considered-sounding as
> an opinion. It just
> >> sounds like a toss-off.  I thought
> opinions&  criticism had got past such
> >> statements that tend to crush discussion; hence
> what appears to be my
> >> "jumping down throats" in my reply.  It's not
> helpful, is it?  The
> >> recording itself is not "pretty awful"; _you_ 
> find it pretty awful, and
> >> that's more to the point.  (I'd go through life
> happily never hearing
> >> another note of Mahler, or anything composed or
> conducted by Leonard
> >> Bernstein, but those are truly personal tastes and
> I'm willing to
> >> consider changing them some day.)  Make it
> clearly a personal statement
> >> rather than a graven-in-stone dictum.
> >>
> >> And as to opera in English translation sounding
> ludicrous, it is a matter
> >> of culture, taste, and historical perspective.  I
> have dozens of
> >> recordings of operatic arias and entire works in
> translations from their
> >> original languages; who's to say those are
> ludicrous (except, perhaps, in
> >> the case of the French _Le Favorite_ being turned
> into _La Favorita_,
> >> where the Italian version makes demonstrably
> dramaturgical nonsense of
> >> the original)?  Who in modern poetic Italian
> would ever utter "Infelice!
> >> e tuo credevi"?  And o.k., we usually hear
> "M'appari" rather than "Ach,
> >> so fromm".  Which do we tee-hee? (And should we
> badger singers into the
> >> impenetrabilities of Czech to sing _Rusalka_ or
> _Prodana nevesta_
> >> "correctly" or give them serviceable German, as
> was the 19th century
> >> custom,  or -- dare I say it? -- English versions
> to sing so we can hear
> >> them at all?  I heard the American premiere of
> _Rusalka_ as a child in
> >> San Diego and again at the English National Opera
> 12 years ago -
> > - b
> >>  oth in English.)
> >>
> >> If you're at all interested (and you can skip this
> if you like), the
> >> _Pagliacci_ set is, to my ear, rather well
> conducted; hardly sluggish;
> >> the orchestra is a good cross-section of
> better-class (but not
> >> absolute-top) 1920s London orchestral playing
> (which was often a real
> >> gamble, but more characterful than German and more
> precise than Italian),
> >> with some fire and style.  (I actually tend to
> prefer not-quite-perfect
> >> playing to sterile perfection; more character and
> insight into what the
> >> musicians are doing.)  Mullings is impassioned
> but perhaps hard to like,
> >> and that's really rather interesting as he was
> such a commanding figure
> >> at the time and maybe _we're_ missing something. 
> Licette's light but
> >> pleasant, I can't fault Nash (he hasn't much to
> do) and Williams is solid
> >> and reliable, and sometimes really thrilling, but
> in the English style --
> >> which may be the unattractive thing with the set
> overall for many people.
> >> I got into a discussion on Evan Williams with an
> English c
> > oll
> >>  eague (I being anti-Williams), and I went back
> to the records and
> >> realized I was coming at his style the wrong way.
> The translation is the
> >> original, and many companies (including the Carl
> Rosa) used it to
> >> popularize the piece.  Give the floweriness the
> leeway of its period, as
> >> I daresay an Italian would argue for Leoncavallo's
> own text.  The set is
> >> a document of an interesting time in British
> opera, when the Old Vic was
> >> also doing opera in English to working-class
> audiences (there's a nice H.
> >> V. Morton piece on that), the Carl Rosa was
> performing everywhere from
> >> Hell to Huddersfield, and English Columbia decided
> to expend substantial
> >> trouble in making the UK's first electrical
> complete opera sets for a
> >> yet-untested public.
> >>
> >> These are _my_ opinions, and they are only that.
> And I do jump!
> >>
> >> Philip
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
> >> [78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com]
> On Behalf Of David Lennick
> >> [dlennick at sympatico.ca]
> >> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 10:20 PM
> >> To: 78-L Mail List
> >> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British
> Columbia
> >>
> >> Sorry, Philip. I've heard the set and if you
> prefer idiosyncratic, fine.
> >> I
> >> transferred it and hoped I'd never have to listen
> to it again. As for the
> >> conductor, my error, it's Eugene Goossens Senior.
> I was looking at a
> >> photocopy
> >> of the album's liner and missed the "Snr". Why are
> you jumping down my
> >> throat
> >> over a legitimate opinion which have been echoed
> on this list? Good
> >> singers,
> >> bad concept. Opera in English was something
> considered a necessity at one
> >> point
> >> and may still have its defenders, but even you'd
> have to admit that it
> >> can
> >> sound pretty ludicrous.
> >>
> >> dl
> >>
> >> On 12/4/2010 9:54 PM, Philip Carli wrote:
> >>> What a cheap dismissive comment. I have this
> set and the recent
> >>> excellent CD transfer done in the UK and it's
> certainly idiosyncratic,
> >>> but not  just unthinkingly "pretty awful".
> And which Goossens is it?
> >>> And which translation? And what's the history
> of the set? And why is it
> >>> important (yes, it is)? I throw these out
> because I get annoyed at flip
> >>> judgments.
> >>> ________________________________________
> >>> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
> >>> [78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com]
> On Behalf Of David Lennick
> >>> [dlennick at sympatico.ca]
> >>> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 7:16 PM
> >>> To: 78-L Mail List
> >>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British
> Columbia
> >>>
> >>> I've had this set..I may still have it (don't
> see it on the shelf) but I
> >>> held
> >>> onto the information. Matrix numbers are
> between WA 4999 and 5062.
> >>> Features
> >>> Heddle Nash, Miriam Licette, Dennis Noble,
> Frank Mullings and Harold
> >>> Williams,
> >>> conducted by Eugene Goossens, and as I recall
> it's pretty awful.
> >>>
> >>> dl
> >>>
> >>> On 12/4/2010 6:25 PM, Royal Pemberton wrote:
> >>>> I wonder if they were any more or less
> consistent with that speed
> >>>> specification compared with other labels
> of the time?  Somewhere in the
> >>>> archives of 78-L one can find the exact
> matrix number at which UK
> >>>> Columbia's
> >>>> standard speed became 78 (IIRC it was some
> time in 1927).
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 3:19 AM, Steven C.
> >>>> Barr<stevenc at interlinks.net>wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> From: "Glenn Longwell"<glongwell at snet.net>
> >>>>>> I had someone write to me through
> my website asking if I was
> >>>>>> interested
> >>>>> in
> >>>>>> a 12 record set in a binder by the
> British National Opera Company
> >>>>>> performing Pagliacci. He's located
> in the UK so shipping would be a
> >>>>>> bit
> >>>>>> prohibitive to get it to me in the
> US. What struck me funny about the
> >>>>>> set
> >>>>>> when I looked at the pictures was
> the speed was listed as 80rpm. Is
> >>>>>> this
> >>>>>> indicative of a certain time
> period for British Columbias? I only
> >>>>>> have
> >>>>> one
> >>>>>> British Columbia of that label
> type in my collection and just looked
> >>>>>> at
> >>>>>> it. Never noticed but it also says
> 80rpm.
> >>>>> Anyone interested in this set?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> During the early-mid twenties, British
> Columbia cited their speed as
> >>>>> 80
> >>>>> rpm!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Steven C. Barr
> >>>>>
> >> _______________________________________________
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