[78-L] KKK records

Bertrand CHAUMELLE chaumelle at orange.fr
Thu Mar 4 16:03:20 PST 2010

Le 4 mars 10, à 23:37, Michael Biel a écrit :

> I don't want to cut-and-past the whole thing again, but have a few
> replies.
> Bertrand CHAUMELLE wrote:
>> Are you collecting Charles Manson records,
>> too ? Come on...
> Yes I do collect the records of Charles Manson.  And of Mao, Stalin,
> Adolph and Charlie and his Orch.  I collect all sorts of historical and
> documentary recordings.  The good and the evil.  They are all
> fascinating -- and not just for the content. I research the companies,
> the recording technology, the discographical info, and certainly don't
> get to play them all.  In fact I played the Manson record only to make 
> a
> dub for a former student who was making a film about him.  Not one for
> my ipod -- if I had one!
+++Well, you should get in touch with Jean-Marie Le Pen: as a former 
record producer, he may have fascinating info about that kind of 
M. Jean-Marie LE PEN
But, please, don't mention my name, and don't put me on his mailing 
list ! And if you don't get an answer right away, that's because he's 
abroad, explaining to the Iranian people that gas chambers never 
existed, at their President's request (I forgot his name, sorry). I'm 
not joking.

>> I'm interested in sound recordings because they aren't directly
> related to
>> human suffering, torture, mass murders, racism, genocide, etc.
> Most unfortunately you are wrong.  All of these subjects are available
> on sound recordings in the testimony of those who have suffered, and in
> a few cases from those who were responsible.  There are the recordings
> of the victims of the crimes.
+++I know. What I meant was: you don't use records directly to harm 
people. Records aren't guns, poisons, guillotine, knives. OK ? But , 
indirectly, you can kill people by knocking over their heads with 
>   And recordings have played an active part
> IN torture.  Remember the recent disclosure of exactly which records
> were used by the fiends of the Bush administration as part of the sleep
> deprivation torture Chaney is so proud of?
+++Absolutely. In Guantanamo. But that's indirect. So I hope your 
interest for records isn't heightened by the possibility that you can 
harm people with them !!
> But the Clinton
> administration has blood on its hands in Waco, and loud endless music
> was used there also as torture to soften them up.  In both instances 
> the
> performers are furious -- some have sued.  So recordings have been
> directly related to all of these things.
+++No: indirectly. But in fact, some of the records themselves aren't 
musical per se. They're just offensive noises. So i'm not shedding any 
tears on those performers... 'Metal' isn't music. Bruce Springsteen 
suing...the idea makes me smile.
>>>  I placed no value judgment on the content, and you should not have 
>>> assumed so.
>> +++That's precisely what I'm blaming you for: you act as a computer,
>> not as a human being.
> I don't have to like and feel happy about all of the recordings or 
> films
> or plays or newscasts I see or hear.  It's life. In many cases I dont
> listen or watch things to be entertained, but to learn.
+++You don't want to understand, eh ? Did I say 'I want to be happy all 
the time' ? I feel sad, too, when I listen to J.B. Lenoir singing about 
what they did to his kins in Alabama. But he's a good guy. He isn't a 
mass murderer. That's why I can feel empathy for him.
>> How many black people are on this List and
>> enjoy collecting KKK records ? Please raise your hand.
> Early in this thread it was mentioned that there are a lot a Black
> collectors of racist artifacts.
+++I noticed that: a lot of Black collectors....on the outside (i.e. 
not on the List). Don't you think that it would be a good thing to 
check if it's true ?

>> The KuKluxKlan isn't the NAACP.
> There are those in our society who feel that that the NAACP is an evil
> organization.
+++Well, I'm about to give up on you...

>>  Those "innocuous"
>> records were issued by an organization who wanted to kill as many
>> colored people as possible.
> Actually they were not a genocide organization.  They selectively
> murdered to create an "example" for the others to tear.
+++OK, oK you must be right about the number of people...but that's not 
the point.
>   They wanted
> their servants, low-salaried workers, their second-class citizens to
> scapegoat as the cause of their troubles.  There were a few race-riots,
> but mostly it was one at a time, as punishment for a specified crime --
> real or imagined.  They were terrorists, not genocidists.
+++I hate both kinds anyway

>   These records
> were apparently part of the recruitment tools, and as entertainment at
> gatherings they might also be used for inspiring the group.  They are a
> look into what made them tick, and what we might want to guard against
> even now.
+++That was a long time ago...I think it is much more important to 
decrypt the racist traits in our present civilization, NOW. In movies, 
first of all, because they are the main ideologicial vector. While 
you're busy searching the KKK records, you ignore what's going on under 
your nose, those films where 90% of the time you have unspeakable 
violence, redeemed at the end by some lame 'justification'. Everyday TV 
and cinema fare.

>>  Your first concern should be to have
>> compassion for their victims: this is more important than academic
>> standards, don't you think ?
> The best way is to remember what had been done to them.    Survivors of
> the Nazis have a rallying cry NEVER FORGET! which is used as 
> recordings,
> films, books, and museum exhibits of the worst crimes are exhibited.

+++OK, but all survivors of the Nazis weren't  willing to travel to the 
camps. Some refused to do so. That doesn't mean they can't remember.
>> +++BS. You can write about anything with no particular knowledge,
>> providing that you recognize the right of better-informed individuals
>> to correct your affirmations. That's why there are discussion Lists,
>> isn't it ?
> The falsehoods have a tendency to linger and be repeated.  I dislike
> when false information is supplied, either accidentally by ignorance, 
> or
> purposefully.  Our country is suffering because we have a major "news"
> organization which has openly admitted that they have given their
> commentators permission to lie, to broadcast things that are not
> factual, to misstate poll findings, to misqute people, to deny their
> errors when confronted with them, all because in a free country they
> CAN.  They even won a law suit brought against them by two journalists
> they fired because they would not falsify an investigative series they
> were preparing.  The courts found that news does not have to be
> truthful.  (And if anybody doubts it, I will give you the URLs to the
> interviews with the head of the "news" channel, and the court citations
> for the lawsiut.)  The reason why our country is suffering is because
> there are too many damn fools out there who believe and repeat these
> documented lies!!  That was Goebbles' technique.  The Big Lie, say it
> often enough and it is believed.  History IS repeating itself.  And I 
> am
> convinced that "It CAN Happen Here."  But denying it happened in the
> past and destroying the evidence is not the way to stop it.
+++Thank you for the nice 'bundle' you're making ... You keep on 
accusing me of denial; how can an intelligent person such as you 
compare me with Goebbels, when you know that in fact I can't destroy 
anything in the full meaning of the word, because I don't know where 
those records are, and because there is an unknown quantity of them 
always remaining (duplicates) ?

>> I don't to
>> want to hear any National-Socialist records either, even if it's just
>> "let's have a good beer, brothers".
> I know some very, very anti-Nazis who collect Nazi records including 
> one
> noted author who wrote the book on them.  Same with some friends who
> lived under the Soviets.  We listen and laugh -- we can now because we
> know who won!
+++Are the Ukrainians laughing, too ?

> Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com
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