[78-L] From Frosty to Toscanini

[Michael Biel]

dl wrote:
>> And come on..have you ever seen a skinny snowman?  dl

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: DAVID BURNHAM <burnhamd at rogers.com>
> To quote the punch line of many Jewish jokes, (e.g.
> "Waiter would you please taste this soup?") - "Aha!"

I don't get it.  And I'm Jewish.

> We never had 78s until we had 33s and 45s.

Which was, of course, 1926.  Broadcasters had to know the two speeds by
1929, and the public got their first two-speed turntables in 1931. 
Labels for recording blanks often had a 33/78 speed check-off space back
as far as the 30s.    

> We only have flightless birds because most birds can fly.
> Nobody ever talks about flightless kangaroos. 

How many of us ever talk about kangaroos at all????????

> If all snowmen are the same shape, then none of them are fat.

They can be made thin, didn't you say you carved legs in yours?  But,
yes, most of them suffer from water retention.

> But if anyone has the info, I would still like to know how we wound up
> with at least two different takes of Frosty from June 12, 1950.  The 78
> version that I have is superior to the CD version, which dl said also
> appeared on a Harmony LP.  Was there a reason they resorted to an earlier
> take, (like a damaged or lost master)?  Perhaps this recording isn't
> significant enough for them to retain this information but it would
> be interesting to know.  

Does your 78 have a take number on it?  How do you know if the alternate
on the CD is an earlier take?  Generally over the years, when masters or
file pressings are pulled for reissue they very often use the best
looking master.  And often it is better looking because it is lesser
used -- or alternate.  This happened VERY often in the Victor Vintage
series.  It was eye opening to find out that RCA had so many pop
alternate takes in their vaults from the 20s.  

Even experts occasionally use alternates unknowingly.  A great example
is when Vince Giordano (an acknowledged expert) produced "Time Capsule"
on Buddha for the turn of the century and he used a take of Paul
Whiteman's Charleston that did not have the oriental-like scat.  He
didn't realize that there was a difference between the issued take and
the one he used till I asked him for the take number.  Everyone else was
amazed that this crazy scat (that nobody really likes) was not on all
takes, and that there was a scatless take saved and had never been used
before.  I was amazed that he had not issued this take on purpose
because the scat wasn't there.  (He should have pretended that he knew
the difference and had been looking for a scatless take.)   

> Collectors have all sorts of stories about why the first disc of Toscanini's
> Beethoven 7th was replaced sometime during the run.  Irving Kolodin, who
> wrote the notes for the Victrola issue of this recording states that
> Toscanini insisted that there be two turntables set up so he wouldn't
> have to stop unless there was an error, so what finally appeared on
> records was the result of a single performance. 

To be sure I would have to look at the original session sheets, but they
usually ran two turntables simultaneously to get two masters of each
side, not for recording continuously from one turntable to the next
turntable.  Making a break between sides in a live performance would
make it highly likely that there WOULD be an error, and they might not
know until test pressing stage because they cannot check takes during
the sessions except from another separate machine -- and the different
machines might not all make the changeover the exact same way.  

They recorded sides separately, and usually rehearsed a side, recorded
take one then take two, etc before going on to the next side's rehearsal
and recording.  Even the Stoki/Rach Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini
where the sides fade out and in with a slight overlap were done on a
side by side by side basis with pauses, re-takes, and rehearsals. 
Kousy/Hale Peter and the Wolf was recorded take ones for each side in
the morning with a rehearsal between each side, and then after lunch
they did the takes two and three for each side.  Its on the sheets, not
in discographies.

> But then sometime down the road a new and completely different version of
> side one appeared.  I've heard that the first master got ruined and it had
> to be replaced with an earlier previously rejected take; and I've heard
> that A.T. later changed his mind and didn't like the first take and came
> back to re-record it at a later date.  It was only the first side which was
> affected, the other two sides of the first movement seem to remain the same db

There are far more alternate takes on classical sets than anybody has
ever realized.  Two sides on that Peter and the Wolf have issued
alternates and there may be more I haven't found yet.  Some copies of
the sets have some sides with no take marker, which makes it necessary
to listen to them.  I have alternates on two of the three sides of the
Levant Rhapsody in Blue on Columbia.  I discovered that the entire
Stoky/Rach Rach 2 electrical has issued alternate takes except for side
8, I believe, and that Victor FALSIFIED the session sheet in the Artist
File to cover up the use of H-30 masters for all the post war and
microgroove sets.  The session sheet in the original chronological
binder had not been altered and showed that the pre-war sets had the
approved M takes and post-war sets didn't.  Victor didn't even realize
that Ward Marston used the original set of takes when he remastered the
CD from his own V-shellac set, and Ward didn't even know that he was
using different takes till I called and told him after the CD was
issued. (He called me Mr. Rach 2 when I said hi to him at ARSC.)  That's
why Mark Orbet-Thorn put out a CD of the alternate takes.  

So you have to check the session sheets, compare them with the actual
records and the blue cards, and maybe even have the technical log (and
that is not with the discographical files -- I don't know where it is
now) to be sure what was issued and why.  You also have to know how to
read the sheets, and I am not sure if Irving K could.  And now you have
to check if RCA falsified the sheets in the Artist Files.   

Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com