[78-L] Race observations/recordings

Fri Jan 23 17:04:12 PST 2009

I have a whole section of 12" 78s devoted to minstrel show recreation recordings on Victor and  Brunswick, are these racist ? 
Lanny Rose was featured on a World transcription syndication feature "Show Boat" based on a river boat minstrel show, complete with  what was considered typical black slang and voicing,
Ohh dont forget the Transco series Sonny and Buddy  with their black friend and  the "South of the border" bad guy.
I just remembered  George Olsens "10,000 (#?) Frenchmen cant be wrong" ....  that has all kinds of references to nationalities....  
These were just a reflection of  a culture at that time....  good or bad  cant be dictated by todays  enlightenment in retrospect.  
dnward

-----Original Message-----
>From: fnarf at comcast.net
>Sent: Jan 23, 2009 12:59 PM
>To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations
>
>Many blacks performed in blackface as well, which is downright weird.
>
>--
>Steve.
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
>From: "Ron L'Herault" <lherault at bu.edu>
>> I would like to weigh in on the Jolson issue.  I like Jolson's voice and
>> style. He did lots of tunes and was in many many musicals.  It was not all
>> in blackface, which, was THEATER.  The characters he portrayed were usually
>> smart and came out on top.  From what I have read about Jolson, he was not
>> any more racist than anyone else of his era, and in fact was probably less
>> racist.  Jolson was always known to help Black artists.  And besides, we
>> shouldn't condemn people or music from the past out of hand.  We can't look
>> at them with modern eyes.  And, yes, people are still singing tunes Jolson
>> that sang and or had a hand in writing.
>> 
>> Jolson was not the only performer to appear in black face either.  Eddie
>> Cantor comes quickly to mind.  Others donned Chinese garb and make-up.
>> Warner Oland as Charlie Chan is an example.  Comedians of all different
>> races made themselves up to look like other people.  Was it now what we
>> consider racist? In many cases, yes.  Did it denigrate?  Again, in many
>> cases, yes, it was.  Was it mean-spirited? In some cases, I'm sure it was,
>> but from what I have seen that was not the usual case.  Should we go back to
>> the way it was 20, 50 or 100 years ago? No.  But we should not have to erase
>> it from our consciousness either.
>> 
>> Ron L
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
>> [mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of Tom
>> Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:07 PM
>> To: 78-L Mail List
>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations
>> 
>> 
>> What is it, exactly, about American art forms that depict African-Americans
>> in the most demeaning, pejorative, and degrading light that you guys find
>> redeeming and worthwhile?
>>  
>> I'd really like to know.
>>  
>> You guys are big fans of Al Jolson (and now, it seems, his source of
>> inspriation, if you want to call it that, Stephen Foster) who made a career
>> of sorts, by depicting African-Americans as wide-eyed, lustful,
>> disorganized, ignorant and inferior to whites.
>> 
>>  
>> Is there supposed to be something ennobling artistically in those sorts of
>> stereotypes? If so, would you mind expanding on what it is?
>>  
>> What about Buckwheat and Amos-'n-Andy? You guys overlooked them.
>>  
>> And the use of the word "nigger" to refer to people of African
>> American descent was always derogatory, offensive and racist and still is
>> irrespective of whether it appeared in Broadway shows, in movies, on the
>> stage, in audio recordings or elsewhere. It was never quaint or
>> affectionate, much less "endearing".
>>  
>> And by the way, no one performs Stephen Foster or Al Jolson songs any more
>> and for good reason.
>>  
>> 
>> --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Chris Zwarg <doctordisc at truesoundtransfers.de> wrote:
>> 
>> From: Chris Zwarg <doctordisc at truesoundtransfers.de>
>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations
>> To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>> Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 4:08 AM
>> 
>> At 07:04 23.01.2009, you wrote:
>> >----- Original Message ----- 
>> >From: "DAVID BURNHAM" <burnhamd at rogers.com>
>> >>In the generation before ours, (Steven's 
>> >> and mine), the n-word seemed to be acceptable even in polite company.
>> It 
>> >> occurs twice in the 1936 recording of "Mikado", famously in
>> "Showboat", 
>> >> many times in the Shilkret album of Stephen Foster and, of course, in 
>> >> countless "coon song" records. To my knowledge, in none of
>> these cases is 
>> >> the term used derogatorily, in fact in some cases it's used 
>> >> affectionately. 
>> 
>> At face value it is derogatory in "Mikado", but Gilbert put it there
>> in a farcical vein, as part of Ko-Ko's "little list" of despicable
>> individuals he'd like to see executed. A few moments later it is revealed in
>> the story that despite this mighty rant - BTW set to the most tip-toeing and
>> non-ranting music imaginable - he couldn't even kill a bluebottle. The
>> ominous list contains among others the author himself ("the judicial
>> humorist" - Gilbert had been a lawyer before he turned to writing
>> operettas), and traditionally, in the last verse, any current celebrity the
>> singer and producer find a way to fit into the metre.
>> 
>> I didn't dare to say this yesterday, but now I'll chime in that I
>> always found both the Foster and "coon" songs I heard on old records
>> endearing rather than condescending. I have no problem imagining the
>> "heroes" of many of these songs as likeable real persons I could get
>> along with splendidly - precisely the last thing a racist (as I understand
>> that
>> word) would want.
>> 
>> All the songs you quote are so far removed from being racist agitprop that
>> the
>> cuts or bowdlerizations common today to remove the "offensive" word(s)
>> - or in case of Foster the suppression of the whole genre from the current
>> repertoire except maybe as instrumental pieces - strike me as showing a lack
>> of
>> respect for the integrity of these works of art. To not use a word today in
>> conversation - as I learned the hard way here very recently - is one thing,
>> to
>> "correct" long-dead authors something very different, and endorsing
>> one does not make the other more palatable. It's like deciding that, with
>> our today's listening expectations, the lack of "blue" notes and
>> jazz phrasing in Beethoven's 9th is a defect and should be
>> "remedied" to "improve" the work.
>> 
>> Chris Zwarg
>> 
>> 
>> >You might say that because I'm not Afro-American myself, 
>> >> that I have no right to express an opinion on how offensive this might
>> be 
>> >> and I would offer no argument to that observation. I can never
>> experience 
>> >> the life of a black in a  white community but I have found myself
>> amongst 
>> >> entirely black groups of friends and had them calling me names that
>> are 
>> >> the counter-parts of the n-word in that community but we were fooling 
>> >> around and no offense on either part was intended or felt.
>> >>
>> >> I can foresee the day when the term "gay" is going to be
>> unacceptable.
>> >>
>> >> I know there are many Jewish posters on this list and while the word
>> "Jew" 
>> >> is probably how they would refer to themselves, I'm sure
>> they've all heard 
>> >> that word used in an offensive context. Sometimes I believe there is
>> too 
>> >> much emphasis put on a word and too little on the genuine feelings
>> between 
>> >> groups in society. A couple of decades ago, the term "frog"
>> was introduced 
>> >> as an derogatory term for Quebecers but instead of being offended by
>> it, 
>> >> they ran with it, introducing terms such as "frog power" and
>> it lost it's 
>> >> impact. Back in the late 50s and early 60s the term "dummie"
>> was 
>> >> considered politically incorrect, (although that description
>> wasn't in use 
>> >> yet), but today the term has been cleared, probably because the term
>> can 
>> >> no longer be used to refer to someone who is mute so it now only has
>> one 
>> >> meaning, (political correctness for dummies). You still often see
>> plumbing 
>> >> connections which are called "Siamese connections", okay
>> perhaps because 
>> >> there
>> >> is no longer a country by that name. Are we still using the term
>> "Dutch 
>> >> treat" or "going Dutch"? That word itself is offensive
>> to some 
>> >> Nederlanders while others say that's what they are. I don't
>> know what 
>> >> "Indian giver" has been replaced by.
>> >> Anyway, that's my $.02 worth!
>> >>
>> >Point being that the unacceptability of "N****r" in my post...and
>> in my 
>> >growing up...
>> >was strictly a PERSONAL experience!! This was NOT standard among those
>> >of my age demographic...it was just the way *I* was told to behave...!!
>> >
>> >Sadly, the human race is divided into easily identifiable groups...almost 
>> >ALL of
>> >whom cordially hate one another!
>> >
>> >...stevenc 
>> >
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