[78-L] You never answered Chris Zwarg's question

[Tom]

Thanks for the moral support, Steve.
 
I'm still waiting for the coon song enthusiasts to walk me through the positive connotations associated therewith.


--- On Fri, 1/23/09, fnarf at comcast.net <fnarf at comcast.net> wrote:

From: fnarf at comcast.net <fnarf at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [78-L] You never answered Chris Zwarg's question
To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 7:14 PM

These two aspects live in uneasy concert. I swear, do none of you people know
ANYTHING about African-American, i.e., American, history?

Coon songs WERE virulently racist. They also served as a vector of
African-American musical styles into white culture, in imitation of the black
performers that virtually everyone in New York, which is what we're really
talking about here, would have been familiar with.

--
Steve.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Tom <nice_guy_with_an_mba at yahoo.com>
>  
> Here's one of the things Chris said during our initial exchange about
this 
> subject: << What is obvious *musically* is that the composers of
"coon songs" 
> are usually trying to imitate Afro-American musical styles - mainly
spirituals 
> and ragtime - so these must have had *positive* connotations with their 
> audience, if only as "exotic" spices to liven up the usual diet
of romantic 
> ballads and marching tunes. >>
>  
> Now, do you seriously believe that the coon songs were primarily works of
art 
> that originated to "try to imitate Afro-American musical
styles"?
>  
> Here are some of the lyrics of one of them, titled "Gimme Ma
Money":
>  
> -------------------------------------
>  
> Last night I did go to a big Crap game,
> How dem coons did gamble wuz a sin and a shame...
> I'm gambling for my Sadie,
> Cause she's my lady,
> I'm a hustling coon, ... dat's just what I am
>  
> -------------------------------------
>  
> Okie dokie. And the positive connotations are ... ?
>  
> And by the way, "De Camptown Races" in an inherently racist
piece of swill, as 
> pointed out previously.
>  
> 
> 
> --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Jess McLean2 <jessmclean2 at verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> From: Jess McLean2 <jessmclean2 at verizon.net>
> Subject: [78-L] You never answered Chris Zwarg's question
> To: "78 List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 5:58 PM
> 
> OK-
> 
> You never answered Chris Zwarg's question - a request to show what
backs up
> your position concerning the Foster songs.  
> 
> I have a question for you. Tell me WHO/WHAT race-religion-ethnicity DOSE
NOT
> GET STEREOTYPED regularly, by comics, music, shows, and plain old
walk-around
> folks? I believe that no group of people or location in the country can
claim
> innocence in these matters.
> 
> I have heard that "the north loves the blacks as a race but hates
them as
> individuals and the south loves them as individuals and hates them as a
> race." I would bet that some of the comments and individuals replying
would
> fit this description pretty well.
> 
> The fact of the matter - I have often been "put down" for my
accent,
> for the location where I grew up and my ethnic background, but it means
nothing
> as it is more a measure of the speaker than of me. There are numerous
replies to
> the initial message who put themselves in that category by their replies.
A lot
> of the replies on this subject are by the sanctimonious ones who [as
usual]
> "...see the spec in another's eye and can't see the one in
his
> own."
> 
> I have regularly seen snide comments on this list which are "put
> downs" for the president and religions and even countries along with
other
> comments touting their own ethnicity/race/religion/culture - but
that's all
> ok because its from the one in the "in crowd." Most all of them
are
> gratuitous, but no one says anything until  one comes up with what
> "you" consider in your opinion"bad." So then all the
> judgmental stuff starts.
> 
> Many of the replies have been of the form of   "I'm always right
and
> wonderful and I'm gonna tell you what you are." ... BS! 
> 
> There are a lots of really smart people on this list - and they should
start
> using their smarts to ignore those things of no great moment. 
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> Jess McLean
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Jess McLean2 
>   To: 0 AA Me 
>   Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 4:31 PM
> 
> 
>   Message: 6
>   Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 13:54:15 -0800 (PST)
>   From: Tom <nice_guy_with_an_mba at yahoo.com>
>   Subject: Re: [78-L] Stephen Foster
>   To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>   Message-ID: <177274.84036.qm at web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
>   Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
>   ?
>   This song clearly and unequivocally mimicks the speech patterns of
African
> Americans in a pejorative manner, as I think you know.
>   ?
>   So what is gained, culturally, by this kind of stereotyping? And what is
> achieved artistically by perpetuating the stereotype of African Americans
as
> shiftless and?inarticulate, but happy-go-lucky, people who indulge in the
> zero-sum game of betting on horse races?
>   ?
>   Actually, make that the less-than-zero-sum game of betting on horse
races
> since the house has to be paid.
>   ?
>   Does it, perhaps, serve to nurture and perpetuate stereotypes that are
> advantageous to the white power structure of the time, suggesting that
African
> Americans aren't responsible enough to take care of themselves since
they
> rely on gambling rather than work to get by and must, therefore, be taken
care
> of by a paternalistic system of slavery?
>   ?
>   << ... I find nothing ugly or dislikeable about the characters or
the
> events recounted in this song, nor anything that would induce any negative
or
> aggressive emotion ... >>
>   ?
>   Yeah, I understand that. But then, you're the guy who referred to
> President Obama the other day as "your n*gger president" so
it's
> fair to say you're not in a great position from which to speak with
> convincing moral authority on this issue.
>   ?
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