[78-L] You never answered Chris Zwarg's question

[fnarf at comcast.net]

These two aspects live in uneasy concert. I swear, do none of you people know ANYTHING about African-American, i.e., American, history?

Coon songs WERE virulently racist. They also served as a vector of African-American musical styles into white culture, in imitation of the black performers that virtually everyone in New York, which is what we're really talking about here, would have been familiar with.

--
Steve.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Tom <nice_guy_with_an_mba at yahoo.com>
>  
> Here's one of the things Chris said during our initial exchange about this 
> subject: << What is obvious *musically* is that the composers of "coon songs" 
> are usually trying to imitate Afro-American musical styles - mainly spirituals 
> and ragtime - so these must have had *positive* connotations with their 
> audience, if only as "exotic" spices to liven up the usual diet of romantic 
> ballads and marching tunes. >>
>  
> Now, do you seriously believe that the coon songs were primarily works of art 
> that originated to "try to imitate Afro-American musical styles"?
>  
> Here are some of the lyrics of one of them, titled "Gimme Ma Money":
>  
> -------------------------------------
>  
> Last night I did go to a big Crap game,
> How dem coons did gamble wuz a sin and a shame...
> I'm gambling for my Sadie,
> Cause she's my lady,
> I'm a hustling coon, ... dat's just what I am
>  
> -------------------------------------
>  
> Okie dokie. And the positive connotations are ... ?
>  
> And by the way, "De Camptown Races" in an inherently racist piece of swill, as 
> pointed out previously.
>  
> 
> 
> --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Jess McLean2 <jessmclean2 at verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> From: Jess McLean2 <jessmclean2 at verizon.net>
> Subject: [78-L] You never answered Chris Zwarg's question
> To: "78 List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 5:58 PM
> 
> OK-
> 
> You never answered Chris Zwarg's question - a request to show what backs up
> your position concerning the Foster songs.  
> 
> I have a question for you. Tell me WHO/WHAT race-religion-ethnicity DOSE NOT
> GET STEREOTYPED regularly, by comics, music, shows, and plain old walk-around
> folks? I believe that no group of people or location in the country can claim
> innocence in these matters.
> 
> I have heard that "the north loves the blacks as a race but hates them as
> individuals and the south loves them as individuals and hates them as a
> race." I would bet that some of the comments and individuals replying would
> fit this description pretty well.
> 
> The fact of the matter - I have often been "put down" for my accent,
> for the location where I grew up and my ethnic background, but it means nothing
> as it is more a measure of the speaker than of me. There are numerous replies to
> the initial message who put themselves in that category by their replies. A lot
> of the replies on this subject are by the sanctimonious ones who [as usual]
> "...see the spec in another's eye and can't see the one in his
> own."
> 
> I have regularly seen snide comments on this list which are "put
> downs" for the president and religions and even countries along with other
> comments touting their own ethnicity/race/religion/culture - but that's all
> ok because its from the one in the "in crowd." Most all of them are
> gratuitous, but no one says anything until  one comes up with what
> "you" consider in your opinion"bad." So then all the
> judgmental stuff starts.
> 
> Many of the replies have been of the form of   "I'm always right and
> wonderful and I'm gonna tell you what you are." ... BS! 
> 
> There are a lots of really smart people on this list - and they should start
> using their smarts to ignore those things of no great moment. 
> 
> My 2 cents.
> 
> Jess McLean
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Jess McLean2 
>   To: 0 AA Me 
>   Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 4:31 PM
> 
> 
>   Message: 6
>   Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 13:54:15 -0800 (PST)
>   From: Tom <nice_guy_with_an_mba at yahoo.com>
>   Subject: Re: [78-L] Stephen Foster
>   To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>   Message-ID: <177274.84036.qm at web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
>   Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> 
>   ?
>   This song clearly and unequivocally mimicks the speech patterns of African
> Americans in a pejorative manner, as I think you know.
>   ?
>   So what is gained, culturally, by this kind of stereotyping? And what is
> achieved artistically by perpetuating the stereotype of African Americans as
> shiftless and?inarticulate, but happy-go-lucky, people who indulge in the
> zero-sum game of betting on horse races?
>   ?
>   Actually, make that the less-than-zero-sum game of betting on horse races
> since the house has to be paid.
>   ?
>   Does it, perhaps, serve to nurture and perpetuate stereotypes that are
> advantageous to the white power structure of the time, suggesting that African
> Americans aren't responsible enough to take care of themselves since they
> rely on gambling rather than work to get by and must, therefore, be taken care
> of by a paternalistic system of slavery?
>   ?
>   << ... I find nothing ugly or dislikeable about the characters or the
> events recounted in this song, nor anything that would induce any negative or
> aggressive emotion ... >>
>   ?
>   Yeah, I understand that. But then, you're the guy who referred to
> President Obama the other day as "your n*gger president" so it's
> fair to say you're not in a great position from which to speak with
> convincing moral authority on this issue.
>   ?
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