[78-L] Race observations

Fri Jan 23 14:16:29 PST 2009

Years ago Edward Eliscu appeared at a popular music studies conference. I
asked him whether Billy Rose made any significant contribution to their
so-called collaborations with Vincent Youmans. He surprised us by stating
that Rose was a full collaborator.

Moving away from 78s a bit, here's something that I've wondered about. Who
paid whom to appear on sheet music covers? I thought that perhaps it might
have gone both ways. The publishers paid stars like Jolson when they put him
on a cover. But maybe unknown wannabe's paid publishers to be featured.
Anyone know? Hope that this isn't too OT.

Sam

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 4:47 PM, <soundthink at aol.com> wrote:

> Just a note on Jolson. It is debatable whether he actually wrote any songs
> at all or even had a hand in any. His practice was to exchange the
> "privilege" of recording a writer's song with getting his name on it for a
> songwriting credit ("Avalon," for example). Elvis Presley did the same thing
> as did Billy Rose, although it's possible Rose contributed some germ of an
> idea to songs. Mostly it was a power play.
>
> Cary Ginell
>
>
> And, yes, people are still singing tunes
> > Jolson
> > > that sang and or had a hand in writing.
> > >
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Brylawski <goodlistening at gmail.com>
> To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Sent: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 1:43 pm
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations
>
>
>
> Blackface traditions, including African Americans performing in blackface,
> is really interestingly and intelligently discussed in a major chapter of
> Nathan Huggins book, "Harlem Reconnaissance." Huggins was a great cultural
> historian. Needless to say, the book includes much else which relates to
> 78s.
>
> Sam
>
> 2009/1/23 <fnarf at comcast.net>
>
> > Many blacks performed in blackface as well, which is downright weird.
> >
> > --
> > Steve.
> >
> >  -------------- Original message ----------------------
> > From: "Ron L'Herault" <lherault at bu.edu>
> > > I would like to weigh in on the Jolson issue.  I like Jolson's voice
> and
> > > style. He did lots of tunes and was in many many musicals.  It was not
> > all
> > > in blackface, which, was THEATER.  The characters he portrayed were
> > usually
> > > smart and came out on top.  From what I have read about Jolson, he was
> > not
> > > any more racist than anyone else of his era, and in fact was probably
> > less
> > > racist.  Jolson was always known to help Black artists.  And besides,
> we
> > > shouldn't condemn people or music from the past out of hand.  We can't
> > look
> > > at them with modern eyes.  And, yes, people are still singing tunes
> > Jolson
> > > that sang and or had a hand in writing.
> > >
> > > Jolson was not the only performer to appear in black face either.
>  Eddie
> > > Cantor comes quickly to mind.  Others donned Chinese garb and make-up.
> > > Warner Oland as Charlie Chan is an example.  Comedians of all different
> > > races made themselves up to look like other people.  Was it now what we
> > > consider racist? In many cases, yes.  Did it denigrate?  Again, in many
> > > cases, yes, it was.  Was it mean-spirited? In some cases, I'm sure it
> > was,
> > > but from what I have seen that was not the usual case.  Should we go
> back
> > to
> > > the way it was 20, 50 or 100 years ago? No.  But we should not have to
> > erase
> > > it from our consciousness either.
> > >
> > > Ron L
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
> > > [mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of Tom
> >
> > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:07 PM
> > > To: 78-L Mail List
> > > Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations
> > >
> > >
> > > What is it, exactly, about American art forms that depict
> > African-Americans
> > > in the most demeaning, pejorative, and degrading light that you guys
> find
> > > redeeming and worthwhile?
> > >
> > > I'd really like to know.
> > >
> > > You guys are big fans of Al Jolson (and now, it seems, his source of
> > > inspriation, if you want to call it that, Stephen Foster) who made a
> > career
> > > of sorts, by depicting African-Americans as wide-eyed, lustful,
> > > disorganized, ignorant and inferior to whites.
> > >
> > >
> > > Is there supposed to be something ennobling artistically in those sorts
> > of
> > > stereotypes? If so, would you mind expanding on what it is?
> > >
> > > What about Buckwheat and Amos-'n-Andy? You guys overlooked them.
> > >
> > > And the use of the word "nigger" to refer to people of African
> > > American descent was always derogatory, offensive and racist and still
> is
> > > irrespective of whether it appeared in Broadway shows, in movies, on
> the
> > > stage, in audio recordings or elsewhere. It was never quaint or
> > > affectionate, much less "endearing".
> > >
> > > And by the way, no one performs Stephen Foster or Al Jolson songs any
> > more
> > > and for good reason.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Chris Zwarg <doctordisc at truesoundtransfers.de>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Chris Zwarg <doctordisc at truesoundtransfers.de>
> > > Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations
> > > To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> > > Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 4:08 AM
> > >
> > > At 07:04 23.01.2009, you wrote:
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "DAVID BURNHAM" <burnhamd at rogers.com>
> > > >>In the generation before ours, (Steven's
> > > >> and mine), the n-word seemed to be acceptable even in polite
> company.
> > > It
> > > >> occurs twice in the 1936 recording of "Mikado", famously in
> > > "Showboat",
> > > >> many times in the Shilkret album of Stephen Foster and, of course,
> in
> > > >> countless "coon song" records. To my knowledge,
> in none of
> > > these cases is
> > > >> the term used derogatorily, in fact in some cases it's used
> > > >> affectionately.
> > >
> > > At face value it is derogatory in "Mikado", but Gilbert put it there
> > > in a farcical vein, as part of Ko-Ko's "little list" of despicable
> > > individuals he'd like to see executed. A few moments later it is
> revealed
> > in
> > > the story that despite this mighty rant - BTW set to the most
> tip-toeing
> > and
> > > non-ranting music imaginable - he couldn't even kill a bluebottle. The
> > > ominous list contains among others the author himself ("the judicial
> > > humorist" - Gilbert had been a lawyer before he turned to writing
> > > operettas), and traditionally, in the last verse, any current celebrity
> > the
> > > singer and producer find a way to fit into the metre.
> > >
> > > I didn't dare to say this yesterday, but now I'll chime in that I
> > > always found both the Foster and "coon" songs I heard on old records
> > > endearing rather than condescending. I have no problem imagining the
> > > "heroes" of many of these songs as likeable real persons I could get
> > > along with splendidly - precisely the last thing a racist (as I
> > understand
> > > that
> > > word) would want.
> > >
> > > All the songs you quote are so far removed from being racist agitprop
> > that
> > > the
> > > cuts or bowdlerizations common today to remove the "offensive" word(s)
> > > - or in case of Foster the suppression of the whole genre from the
> > current
> > > repertoire except maybe as instrumental pieces - strike me as showing a
> > lack
> > > of
> > > respect for the integrity of these works of art. To not use a word
> today
> > in
> > > conversation - as I learned the hard way here very recently - is one
> > thing,
> > > to
> > > "correct" long-dead authors something very different, and endorsing
> > > one does not make the other more palatable. It's like deciding that,
> with
> > > our today's listening expectations, the lack of "blue" notes and
> > > jazz phrasing in Beethoven's 9th is a defect and should be
> > > "remedied" to "improve" the work.
> > >
> > > Chris Zwarg
>
> > >
> > >
> > > >You might say that because I'm not Afro-American myself,
> > > >> that I have no right to express an opinion on how offensive this
> might
> > > be
> > > >> and I would offer no argument to that observation. I can never
> > > experience
> > > >> the life of a black in a  white community but I have found myself
> > > amongst
> > > >> entirely black groups of friends and had them calling me names that
> > > are
> > > >> the counter-parts of the n-word in that community but we were
> fooling
> > > >> around and no offense on either part was intended or felt.
> > > >>
> > > >> I can foresee the day when the term "gay" is going to be
> > > unacceptable.
> > > >>
> > > >> I know there are many Jewish posters on this list and while the word
> > > "Jew"
> > > >> is probably how they would refer to themselves, I'm sure
> > > they've all heard
> > > >> that word used in an offensive context. Sometimes I believe there is
> > > too
> > > >> much emphasis put on a word and too little on the genuine feelings
> > > between
> > > >> groups in society. A couple of decades ago, the term "frog"
> > > was introduced
> > > >> as an derogatory term for Quebecers but instead of being offended by
> > > it,
> > > >> they ran with it, introducing terms such as "frog power" and
> > > it lost it's
> > > >> impact. Back in the late 50s and early 60s the term "dummie"
> > > was
> > > >> considered politically incorrect, (although that description
> > > wasn't in use
> > > >> yet), but today the term has been cleared, probably because the term
> > > can
> > > >> no longer be used to refer to someone who is mute so it now only has
> > > one
> > > >> meaning, (political correctness for dummies). You still often see
> > > plumbing
> > > >> connections which are called "Siamese connections", okay
> > > perhaps because
> > > >> there
> > > >> is no longer a country by that name. Are we still using the term
> > > "Dutch
> > > >> treat" or "going Dutch"? That word itself is offensive
> > > to some
> > > >> Nederlanders while others say that's what they are. I don't
> > > know what
> > > >> "Indian giver" has been replaced by.
> > > >> A
> nyway, that's my $.02 worth!
> > > >>
> > > >Point being that the unacceptability of "N****r" in my post...and
> > > in my
> > > >growing up...
> > > >was strictly a PERSONAL experience!! This was NOT standard among those
> > > >of my age demographic...it was just the way *I* was told to
> behave...!!
> > > >
> > > >Sadly, the human race is divided into easily identifiable
> > groups...almost
> > > >ALL of
> > > >whom cordially hate one another!
> > > >
> > > >...stevenc
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
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