[78-L] Race observations

Fri Jan 23 13:47:45 PST 2009

Just a note on Jolson. It is debatable whether he actually wrote any songs at all or even had a hand in any. His practice was to exchange the "privilege" of recording a writer's song with getting his name on it for a songwriting credit ("Avalon," for example). Elvis Presley did the same thing as did Billy Rose, although it's possible Rose contributed some germ of an idea to songs. Mostly it was a power play.

Cary Ginell

And, yes, people are still singing tunes
> Jolson
> > that sang and or had a hand in writing.
> >

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Brylawski <goodlistening at gmail.com>
To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
Sent: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 1:43 pm
Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations

Blackface traditions, including African Americans performing in blackface,
is really interestingly and intelligently discussed in a major chapter of
Nathan Huggins book, "Harlem Reconnaissance." Huggins was a great cultural
historian. Needless to say, the book includes much else which relates to
78s.

Sam

2009/1/23 <fnarf at comcast.net>

> Many blacks performed in blackface as well, which is downright weird.
>
> --
> Steve.
>
>  -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "Ron L'Herault" <lherault at bu.edu>
> > I would like to weigh in on the Jolson issue.  I like Jolson's voice and
> > style. He did lots of tunes and was in many many musicals.  It was not
> all
> > in blackface, which, was THEATER.  The characters he portrayed were
> usually
> > smart and came out on top.  From what I have read about Jolson, he was
> not
> > any more racist than anyone else of his era, and in fact was probably
> less
> > racist.  Jolson was always known to help Black artists.  And besides, we
> > shouldn't condemn people or music from the past out of hand.  We can't
> look
> > at them with modern eyes.  And, yes, people are still singing tunes
> Jolson
> > that sang and or had a hand in writing.
> >
> > Jolson was not the only performer to appear in black face either.  Eddie
> > Cantor comes quickly to mind.  Others donned Chinese garb and make-up.
> > Warner Oland as Charlie Chan is an example.  Comedians of all different
> > races made themselves up to look like other people.  Was it now what we
> > consider racist? In many cases, yes.  Did it denigrate?  Again, in many
> > cases, yes, it was.  Was it mean-spirited? In some cases, I'm sure it
> was,
> > but from what I have seen that was not the usual case.  Should we go back
> to
> > the way it was 20, 50 or 100 years ago? No.  But we should not have to
> erase
> > it from our consciousness either.
> >
> > Ron L
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
> > [mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of Tom
> 
> Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:07 PM
> > To: 78-L Mail List
> > Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations
> >
> >
> > What is it, exactly, about American art forms that depict
> African-Americans
> > in the most demeaning, pejorative, and degrading light that you guys find
> > redeeming and worthwhile?
> >
> > I'd really like to know.
> >
> > You guys are big fans of Al Jolson (and now, it seems, his source of
> > inspriation, if you want to call it that, Stephen Foster) who made a
> career
> > of sorts, by depicting African-Americans as wide-eyed, lustful,
> > disorganized, ignorant and inferior to whites.
> >
> >
> > Is there supposed to be something ennobling artistically in those sorts
> of
> > stereotypes? If so, would you mind expanding on what it is?
> >
> > What about Buckwheat and Amos-'n-Andy? You guys overlooked them.
> >
> > And the use of the word "nigger" to refer to people of African
> > American descent was always derogatory, offensive and racist and still is
> > irrespective of whether it appeared in Broadway shows, in movies, on the
> > stage, in audio recordings or elsewhere. It was never quaint or
> > affectionate, much less "endearing".
> >
> > And by the way, no one performs Stephen Foster or Al Jolson songs any
> more
> > and for good reason.
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Chris Zwarg <doctordisc at truesoundtransfers.de>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Chris Zwarg <doctordisc at truesoundtransfers.de>
> > Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations
> > To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> > Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 4:08 AM
> >
> > At 07:04 23.01.2009, you wrote:
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "DAVID BURNHAM" <burnhamd at rogers.com>
> > >>In the generation before ours, (Steven's
> > >> and mine), the n-word seemed to be acceptable even in polite company.
> > It
> > >> occurs twice in the 1936 recording of "Mikado", famously in
> > "Showboat",
> > >> many times in the Shilkret album of Stephen Foster and, of course, in
> > >> countless "coon song" records. To my knowledge, 
in none of
> > these cases is
> > >> the term used derogatorily, in fact in some cases it's used
> > >> affectionately.
> >
> > At face value it is derogatory in "Mikado", but Gilbert put it there
> > in a farcical vein, as part of Ko-Ko's "little list" of despicable
> > individuals he'd like to see executed. A few moments later it is revealed
> in
> > the story that despite this mighty rant - BTW set to the most tip-toeing
> and
> > non-ranting music imaginable - he couldn't even kill a bluebottle. The
> > ominous list contains among others the author himself ("the judicial
> > humorist" - Gilbert had been a lawyer before he turned to writing
> > operettas), and traditionally, in the last verse, any current celebrity
> the
> > singer and producer find a way to fit into the metre.
> >
> > I didn't dare to say this yesterday, but now I'll chime in that I
> > always found both the Foster and "coon" songs I heard on old records
> > endearing rather than condescending. I have no problem imagining the
> > "heroes" of many of these songs as likeable real persons I could get
> > along with splendidly - precisely the last thing a racist (as I
> understand
> > that
> > word) would want.
> >
> > All the songs you quote are so far removed from being racist agitprop
> that
> > the
> > cuts or bowdlerizations common today to remove the "offensive" word(s)
> > - or in case of Foster the suppression of the whole genre from the
> current
> > repertoire except maybe as instrumental pieces - strike me as showing a
> lack
> > of
> > respect for the integrity of these works of art. To not use a word today
> in
> > conversation - as I learned the hard way here very recently - is one
> thing,
> > to
> > "correct" long-dead authors something very different, and endorsing
> > one does not make the other more palatable. It's like deciding that, with
> > our today's listening expectations, the lack of "blue" notes and
> > jazz phrasing in Beethoven's 9th is a defect and should be
> > "remedied" to "improve" the work.
> >
> > Chris Zwarg

> >
> >
> > >You might say that because I'm not Afro-American myself,
> > >> that I have no right to express an opinion on how offensive this might
> > be
> > >> and I would offer no argument to that observation. I can never
> > experience
> > >> the life of a black in a  white community but I have found myself
> > amongst
> > >> entirely black groups of friends and had them calling me names that
> > are
> > >> the counter-parts of the n-word in that community but we were fooling
> > >> around and no offense on either part was intended or felt.
> > >>
> > >> I can foresee the day when the term "gay" is going to be
> > unacceptable.
> > >>
> > >> I know there are many Jewish posters on this list and while the word
> > "Jew"
> > >> is probably how they would refer to themselves, I'm sure
> > they've all heard
> > >> that word used in an offensive context. Sometimes I believe there is
> > too
> > >> much emphasis put on a word and too little on the genuine feelings
> > between
> > >> groups in society. A couple of decades ago, the term "frog"
> > was introduced
> > >> as an derogatory term for Quebecers but instead of being offended by
> > it,
> > >> they ran with it, introducing terms such as "frog power" and
> > it lost it's
> > >> impact. Back in the late 50s and early 60s the term "dummie"
> > was
> > >> considered politically incorrect, (although that description
> > wasn't in use
> > >> yet), but today the term has been cleared, probably because the term
> > can
> > >> no longer be used to refer to someone who is mute so it now only has
> > one
> > >> meaning, (political correctness for dummies). You still often see
> > plumbing
> > >> connections which are called "Siamese connections", okay
> > perhaps because
> > >> there
> > >> is no longer a country by that name. Are we still using the term
> > "Dutch
> > >> treat" or "going Dutch"? That word itself is offensive
> > to some
> > >> Nederlanders while others say that's what they are. I don't
> > know what
> > >> "Indian giver" has been replaced by.
> > >> A
nyway, that's my $.02 worth!
> > >>
> > >Point being that the unacceptability of "N****r" in my post...and
> > in my
> > >growing up...
> > >was strictly a PERSONAL experience!! This was NOT standard among those
> > >of my age demographic...it was just the way *I* was told to behave...!!
> > >
> > >Sadly, the human race is divided into easily identifiable
> groups...almost
> > >ALL of
> > >whom cordially hate one another!
> > >
> > >...stevenc
> > >
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