[78-L] 7What key is that in?

[DAVID BURNHAM]

I worked for several years with Glenn Gould and as far as personality coming from hand positions or fingerings, his belief, (and I agree with him), is that the piano only senses one thing - how fast the hammer approaches the string; it could be at the hands of a great concert pianist, a great jazz pianist or an orangutan, it will sound the same.  All the weaving and emoting you might do while you're holding the key down doesn't matter, the hammer has already done its job by that point.

db


On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 1:55:38 PM, Malcolm Rockwell <malcolm at 78data.com.invalid> wrote:
 

>
>
>
>Thanks for the interesting reply and observations.
>My "chest resonance" theory actually points up that there is no such 
>thing as "perfect pitch." It's actually all relative pitch. You are 
>relating all secondary pitches to one you are familiar with, thus 
>"relative pitch."
>I agree with your "untrained ear" observation. It is mine too.
>Also with discovering a great piano tuner. I have found a few in my 
>time. Unfortunately they get old and die and are mostly replaced with 
>amateurs with electronic gizmos that do all the underlying work for 
>them. Badly.
>As to different keys on the piano sounding out of tune to C or A. If you 
>do not temper the tuning that Gb will be all over the place, and other 
>keys wiill be "colored" also. Personality of a key comes mostly from 
>fingerings and hand positions as well as the specific training the 
>pianist has, but I didn't mention that. It's why Ab and Eb are great for 
>ragtime, C and G are great for boogie-woogie.  Seems though that E an A 
>are only used for blues because the guitarists use a standard E or A 
>tuning. There's also the differences in perceived harmonics due to 
>different techniques and materials that go into the manufacture of a piano.
>One of my favorite pieces for piano is "Rhapsody In Blue" mostly because 
>it uses almost all the key sigs there are for the same theme (the first 
>one, as expressed in the opening bars, played by a clarinet in concert. 
>I haven't looked to see which keys are not used but the piece really 
>gives a piano player a workout on a lot of levels!
>Thanks again for an intriguing read.
>Malcolm
>
>*******
>
>On 6/10/2014 7:19 AM, JD wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2014 16:46:20 -1000
>>> From: Malcolm Rockwell <malcolm at 78data.com.invalid>
>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] What key is that in?
>>> To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>>> Message-ID: <53951FFC.2090107 at 78data.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>
>>> All well and good if you have an instrument in front of you. I taught
>>> myself to figure out keys by relating what I'm hearing to the resonant
>>> frequency of my chest (C below A440). That never changes. Kinda. When I
>>> smoked it was almost a whole tone (B flat) below what it is now that
>>> I've been off tobacco for around 20 years. The interval between me and
>>> the source I am listening to tells me what key a piece is in. It used to
>>> be called "ear training."
>>> Concert orchestras and other musicians generally tune to a standard
>>> tone. Currently it's A440, but it was not always so. Around the turn of
>>> the 20th century there were (at least) three standard pitches. The bitch
>>> is that instruments were manufactured to center around any one of the
>>> three standard pitches and the reason many of the concert orchestras
>>> sounded out of tune is... they were! Mixing an instrument manufactured
>>> to an A440 standard with another set at A426 makes for interesting
>>> unisons. You can tune each instrument somewhat to make up for this but
>>> nothing changes the lengths of the piping on a trumpet - that is a
>>> physical fact. The scales will be slightly off pitch, even with movable
>>> fittings on the instrument to adjust for that.
>>> Pianos have it even worse. They're out of tune (tempered tuning) to
>>> begin with. One reason it's done is so a G flat major scale will sound
>>> almost as good as a C major scale when played. And it's why each key on
>>> a piano has its own "personality." Another reason is psycho-acoustic and
>>> takes into account that the ear hears low notes slightly flat the lower
>>> the note is and slightly sharp the further up the scale one goes (I
>>> think that's right, I could be mistaken and it might be the other way
>>> around. It's been awhile since I've delved into this topic) and the
>>> tuner adjusts the pitch accordingly. Thus the scale is "tempered."
>>> What I was describing is a digital tool that transfer and/or restoration
>>> engineers could use while transferring discs to a digital format.
>>> Sometimes we're talking microtones off pitch here (fractions of a tone)
>>> and others, well the sky's the limit. I have a recording that was made
>>> on a field trip in 1928. There was something wrong with the lathe set up
>>> because the piece not only began in one key and ended in another
>>> (without any key change in the tune), it was all over the place during
>>> the tune. How it ever got released is anybody's guess. Cleaning it up
>>> would be a nightmare.
>>> Malcolm
>>>
>> Your chest cavity pitch detector is quite intriguing. If this was the beginnning oif April I wouldn't even mention it.
>>
>> As to the ear tending to interpret low notes on the flat side and high notes on the sharp side you are absolutely correct but you omitted one or two very important adjectives, "untrained" or "inexperienced" with respet to the ear. Most professional musicians with good "ears" do not fall into that trap. Note, please that I said "most" and "good" There are plenty of professional musicians out there who, unfortunately have merde in their ears and can't tell the difference.  This aspect of the human ear was explained to me in the sixties by a well established and respected audio equipment designer and manufacturer of excellent audio components. It immediately struck a chord with me and clarified some of the problems I'd been having with certain (some highly respected) string bass and tuba players who tended to play flat much (if not all) of the time. It also explains why so many lesser lead trumpet and alto sax players from the big band era played sharp.
 some would actually cla
>im
>>    that they tuned sharp deliberately. for brilliance." Nothing could be more wrong, absurd or lunmusical.
>>
>> As to piano tuning, that's a whole different kettle. If you own a piano and are fortunate to find a great tuner, hang onto him as you would a great doctor. Piano tuning at one time was a generally pleasant, self-employed profession. It attracted many clods who would give you this and that about stretching this and that and all sorts of BS. When they were done, the piano was still out of tune.
>>
>> I purchased a new small grand piano in 1965. It came with the usual free home tuning that would generally be required after a month or two or three. The fellow who came did an absolutely superb tuning and fairly quickly. When I inquired that he must be a musician he claimed to know nothing about music. But he obviously had been well trained and knew what to do and how to temper the tuning which is the secret.  He was no longer available for subsequent tunings so I called upon musician friends/colleagues who'd become tuners. The results were always less than stellar and mostly unsatisfying. I ended up buying a tuning hammer, felts, wedges, etc. and tuned it myself. Without going through the typical song and dance that many tuners including my friends employed I was able to tune it to my satisfaction-far better than all the tuners that followed my initial free tuning. My point is that there's a lot of mystique and nonsense that goes along with tuning
 and I feel that you may h
>av
>>   e indulged in a bit of it.
>>
>> Tempered tuning was invented  so that keyboards could play in any key and modulate from one key to any other without problems. Before the advent of tempered tuning that was not possible for keyboards. Unlike keyboards and fretted instruments orchestras do not play in tempered tuning. Their tuning is called just intonation. As a result, keyboards, are actually out of tune with orchestral tuning  (just intonation) but the ear adjusts. Orchestral players automatically adjust their playing as necessary so that it all (usually) works out.
>>
>> Tempered tuning involves the adjustment of certain intervals so that all notes are equi-distant from each other unlike orchestral tuning.  In tempered tuning the intervals of thirds, fourths and fifths are adjusted accordingly. Fourths are stretched slightly and fifths are com[pressed slightly. In orchestral tuning fourths and fifths are called perfect fourths and fifths. There is no vibration resulting from the two notes of a fourth or fifth when they are tuned as a  "perfect" interval. In tempered tuning the tuner counts the vibrations resulting from the compressed or stretched intervals  and sets the strings accordingly or he does it by ear from experience. Similar adjustments are made to the interval of a third. When done properly, the keyboard is in tempered tuning, all notes are equi-distant from one another and can modulate from any key to any other.
>>
>> Tempered tuning has nothing to do with, as you stated "a G flat major scale will sound  almost as good as a C major scale when played" other than that they will each sound correct if the tuning is correct. There is no (NO!) difference in the sound of similar scales, keys or whatever in tempered tuning,\. The only difference to be heard is the difference in register (higher or lower) which the untrained ear may interpret incorrectly. In my early career as a professional I too believed there was a difference until the illogic of it was explained to me by musicians more experienced and aware.
>> The idea of keys sounding different from others is an old fallacy that goes well with the
>> belief that certain keys have certain colors (some famous composers went for that one)  and the characters that used to tune sharp for "more brilliance" which made the group sound like crap. It will probably survive eternally in Roswell.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> JD
>> _______________________________________________
>> 78-L mailing list
>> 78-L at klickitat.78online.com
>> http://klickitat.78online.com/mailman/listinfo/78-l
>
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>78-L mailing list
>78-L at klickitat.78online.com
>http://klickitat.78online.com/mailman/listinfo/78-l
>
>
>