[78-L] Green Grow the Lilacs

[Guyotsmith at aol.com]

That's an interesting thread. The suggestion that, during the  war with 
Mexico, American soldiers sang a version of the song in Mexico,  indicating 
that they would be returning home to "change the green laurel to the  red, 
white, and blue" is intriguing. 
 
My grandmother had an NBC radio series in the 1930s, in which  she would 
dramatize old songs - both folk songs and simply old-time selections -  
weaving a story around the lyrics. Her account of "Green Grow the Lilacs" was  
similar to that of Tex Ritter, who worked on some of her programs. She sang the 
 song differently, though, as did Frank Luther. Some of the songs she 
collected  in Appalachia differed dramatically from the frequently-recorded 
variants. I do  not know where she learned "Green Grow the Lilacs," however. She 
had extensive  knowledge of old songs, but where she picked that one up I do 
not know. A melody  for "The Green Laurels" was printed in an old Journal 
of American Folklore, but  I don't have a copy. If American soldiers in 1847 
did sing the song, we'll never  know precisely how it sounded, but it is 
interesting to speculate. 
 
Have a great week ahead.
 
Jonathan
 
 
In a message dated 1/12/2014 1:56:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
gdkimball at cox.net writes:


There is a long thread on the Mudcat folksong site that  discusses "Green 
Grows the Laurel" and links this Old World song with "Green  Grows the  
Lilac."

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=11139

It's  difficult to tell from this thread how the two are connected, but 
Irish and  Scottish versions might explain the lines about color:  "Orange and 
Blue"  perhaps corrupted to "Oregon Blue"?  There is a citation to a 1917  
version of "The Green Laurels" from a folk song compilation but seemingly  
little else from the American side that is early.

Gregg

----  Guyotsmith at aol.com wrote: 
> I have a World transcription by Frank  Luther which contains  the song. 
I've 
> never had the recording  dates for those World transcriptions, but  I'll 
bet 
> you could  date them. Some of Frank's verses are found in the Scottish  
>  "Green Grow the Laurel" and not in the version Tex sang throughout his  
career,  
> certainly inspired by the Lynn Riggs play and his  involvement in same. 
As 
> the  piece entered tradition, there were  many alterations of both melody 
and 
> lyrics,  of course. My  grandmother, born in 1883, told me a great deal 
about 
> the song,   and I wish I could recall all the details. I do know that 
she, 
> like  our friend  Frank Luther, sang it as "change the green lilac to the 
 
> Oregon blue" or "to the  origin blue," or "to the orange and the  blue," 
and not 
> "to the red, white, and  blue."  As to the  actual recording of the song, 
I 
> would assume Frank  Luther's  World transcription would be the earliest 
that we 
> presently  know  of.  Interesting topic. 
>  
>  Jonathan
>  
>  
> In a message dated 1/12/2014  12:43:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
> soundthink at live.com  writes:
> 
> Here are  the other 78 rpm versions I have of  "Green Grown the Lilacs." 
All 
> are  post-war.
> 
>  Maddox Bros. & Rose (Columbia 21099)
> Tex Ritter &  his  Texans (Capitol 206)
> Johnnie Lee Wills & his Boys (Decca   46064)
> 
> Other versions in my library on LP or 45 include  Harry  Belafonte, Ed 
> McCurdy, The Chad Mitchell Trio, Frank  Luther, The Blue Sky Boys  (their 
reunion 
> for Rounder in the  1970s), The Jones Brothers, The Easy Riders,  Johnny 
> Cash, and  Robin & the Folkstringers (a SESAC  45)
> 
> Cary
>  
> On Jan 12, 2014, at 9:37 AM, Cary Ginell   <soundthink at live.com> wrote:
> 
> > I found another  version of it  by Tony Kraber on his Keynote 78 rpm 
album 
> "The  Old Chisholm Trail" (Keynote  104), but that is the one record out 
of  
> three in the album that I am missing.  The liner notes give the  same 
> derivation of "gringo," which may or may not be  true, but  it's 
certainly an 
> interesting story.
> > 
> > I  find it  interesting that there are no pre-WWII recordings of this  
> song, in light of  the fact that its life goes back a century  before 
Ritter's 
> version.
> >  
> >  Incidentally, Ritter didn't sing the song in "Green Grow the Lilacs."  
He  
> did sing four numbers, but not this one. 
> > 
> >  Cary
> >  
> > On Jan 12, 2014, at 9:30 AM,  Guyotsmith at aol.com wrote:
> >  
> >> Cary, that's an  interesting question. Frank Luther sang it  on  a 
World 
>  >> transcription which would pre-date Tex's Capitol  recording -  and 
Frank  
> much 
> >> later included the song on  his  final Lp, in stereo, for Pickwick. 
Frank 
>  also  
> >> sang the song  on my grandmother's NBC radio series. My  grandmother 
and 
> Tex   
> >> Ritter, who also  worked together in New York, liked to tell the  
story 
> of that  
> >> song's popularity during the 1847 war with Mexico,  and  how the 
> soldiers' 
> >> singing  "Green Grow the  Lilacs" was  supposedly misinterpreted by 
the 
> Mexican 
>  >> troops,  resulting  in their calling the Americans "gringo"  
(corrupted 
> from 
> >> "green  grow").  In  reality, the term "gringo" is probably a 
corruption 
> of  
>  >> "griego," as you know  - but both my grandmother and Tex   spent 
decades 
> telling 
> >> the "Green Grow the   Lilacs" story,  and I shared it with my own 
> students 
>  >> this past week. 
> >>  
> >> Whereas Tex  sings "....and change the green lilacs for the   red, 
white,  
> and 
> >> blue,"  Frank Luther has it "...and  change  the green lilacs  to the 
> Oregon 
> >>  blue."  Others sing it  as "the orange and the blue."    Had I been 
> possessed 
> >> of  sufficient  intelligence in my younger days, I would have  
recorded 
> my   
> >> grandmother singing that song - but I didn't. Her melody -  and  Frank 
 
> Luther's 
> >> - differed from  Tex's. Whether Tex sang it  as Lynn Riggs wanted it  
> sung,  or 
> >> whether he had known the  song as a youth in Texas,  I don't know. He  
> >> sometimes called  it his  favorite song.  How many questions would we 
ask 
> if   we  
> >> could go back in time! 
> >> 
>  >> Have a wonderful  week ahead.
> >> 
> >>  Jonathan
> >> 
> >>  
> >> In a  message dated 1/12/2014 11:51:39 A.M. Eastern Standard  Time,   
> >> soundthink at live.com writes:
> >> 
>  >>  Does  anyone know of recordings of the song "Green Grow  the Lilacs" 
> that  
> >> predates  Tex Ritter's  1945 Capitol version? The song was  the basis 
for 
> Lynn 
>  >> Riggs' 1931  play, which consisted  entirely of traditional  folk 
songs. 
> >> Rodgers &   Hammerstein later  revamped the story, replaced the folk 
> songs with  
>  >> their own  compositions, and transformed Broadway with the   
resulting 
> show, 
> >> "Oklahoma!"  but I find the  orignal show  intriguing. I find no 
> recordings of 
>  >> "Green Grow  the Lilacs"  in Russell so wonder if any  others were 
> recorded.
> >> 
> >>   Cary  Ginell
> >>   _______________________________________________
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