[78-L] 78-L Digest, Vol 63, Issue 23
JD
jackson1932 at cfl.rr.com
Fri Dec 20 13:16:55 PST 2013
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Subject: 78-L Digest, Vol 63, Issue 23
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Jazz myths [was Christian question] (Julian Vein)
> 2. Re: Choral key question (JD)
> 3. Re: Choral key question (Julian Vein)
> 4. Re: Apple's new Amberol (Don Cox)
> 5. Re: Choral key question (Don Cox)
> 6. Re: KEY BALONEY, was Choral key question (Don Cox)
> 7. Re: Test - Sorry (Don Cox)
> 8. Re: Choral key question (David Lennick)
> 9. English Music Hall request (David Lennick)
> 10. Re: English Music Hall request (Thomas Stern)
> 11. Re: Jazz myths [was Christian question] (Joe Scott)
> 12. Re: Jazz myths [was Christian question] (Julian Vein)
> 13. Re: Jazz myths [was Christian question] (Joe Scott)
> 14. Re: Jazz myths [was Christian question] (Joe Scott)
> 15. Re: Jazz myths [was Christian question] (Mike Harkin)
> 16. Re: Choral key question (neechevoneeznayou at gmail.com)
> 17. Re: Jazz myths [was Christian question] (Mike Harkin)
> 18. Re: Test - Sorry (David Breneman)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 23:31:30 +0000
> From: Julian Vein <julianvein at blueyonder.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Jazz myths [was Christian question]
> To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Message-ID: <52B381D2.9000406 at blueyonder.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 16/12/13 20:25, David Weiner wrote:
>>> The ES-150 hit stores in '36. The greatest virtuosos recording jazz
>>> electric guitar as of about '38-'39 seem to have been Zeke Campbell and
>>> Christian, best I can tell.
>>>
>>> Some of the people who recorded on electric guitar before Christian did
>>> are Campbell, George Barnes, Lonnie Johnson, Eddie Durham, Bill Broonzy
>>> (on a bunch of Sonny Boy Williamson sides including big hits), Bob
>>> Symons, and I think the earliest recordings of Les Paul on the radio too.
>>> Basically, about half of those people played in a similar style to
>>> Christian imo.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
> Some of the jazz myths I grew up with were that Charlie Christian
> "invented" the electric guitar; Count Basie was the first to use
> four-four rhythm; Wayman Carver was the first jazz flautist to record;
> "Knockin' A Jug" was the first racially-mixed jazz recording.
>
> I don't think writers actually said these things, but they implied it by
> never clarifying the facts. Any more?
>
> Julian Vein
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 20:52:28 -0500
> From: "JD" <jackson1932 at cfl.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Choral key question
> To: <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Message-ID: <96DA1826BC3B49F0A124F948256EE0B6 at JDPC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2013 20:29:43 +0000
>> From: David Lewis <uncledavelewis at hotmail.com>
>> Subject: [78-L] Choral key question
>> To: 78-l <78-l at 78online.com>
>> Message-ID: <BAY168-W1046EC7C12CE803FF8731CECCC50 at phx.gbl>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> I also vote for A flat. While you'll never find a dance band playing in that key -- too weird --for a piano player it falls pretty easily under the fingers, like Valerie said, owing to all of the black keys. And singers generally don't have an issue with it.
>>
>> Uncle Dave Lewis
>> uncledavelewis at hotmail.com
>>
>> ------------------------------
>
> Maybe it's a full moon or there's somthing in the water. Today on 78-L we had an abundance of music mis-information bandied about. While A-flat is hardly the most common key for playing standards it is certainly not an orphan. The so-called standard keys of tunes derived from the key the piano-vocal sheet music was originally published in, usually a key better suited to male vocal (baritone, like most croonres) rather than female vocal. I aalways thought this choice a bit odd as I'm certain the preponderance of sheet music purchasers were female rather than baritones. The stock arrangements for dance bands (they cost seventy five cents in thr forties and all bands used them, even the name bands to cover possible requests of the latest tunes) were usually in the same key but occasionally varied from the piano-vocal sheet music by a semi or whole-tone. Example: "I'm in the Mood for Love", the standard key for NYC musicians is D flat. The stock was published in C. There were al
> so occasionall regional difefrences in what musician's considered the standard key for a particular tune; a difference of a semi-tone or a whole tone might occur btwen NY & New Jersey musicdians and out in the boonies, who knew! All faking (sans music) musicians were expected to know the proper keys. When a title was called, off you went in the correct key without being told or having to ask and som could play a given tune in any key.
>
> As for singer's non-issues with A-flat, that makes no sense. Real Singers couldn't care less. What counts to them is that it's within their vocal range.
>
> Here's a quick list of A-flat standards:
> ALL THE THINGS YOU ARE (sometimes Bb)
> BYE BYE BLACLBIRD
> FROM THIS MOMENT ON
> SO IN LOVE
> WHY DO I LOVE YOU
> STRANGE MUSIC
> STORMY WEATHER
> THANKS A MILLION
> THE VERY THOUGHT OF YOU
> DINAH
> EASY TO LOVE
> SPRING IS HERE
> MUSKRAT RAMBLE (sometimes in Bb by society bands, a travesty in that key)
> BAUBLES, BANGLES & BEADS
>
> Adhering to the standard keys applies primarily to faking bands, small groups, society bands, etc. mainly as an organizational tool. Female vocalists will almost always have to sing in a key more suited to their range. With written arragngements, assuming good musicians, anything goes. The Dorsey & Les Brown bands often played charts written in more exotic keys and Harry James' opening solo on his mega hit of 1942 "I Had the Craziest Dream" was played in the key of E. That's six sharps or enharmonically six flats for trumpets, tenor saxes & clarinets, D-flat for altos & baritone sax. The reason James chose that key is because that tune in that key lays very comfortably on the trumpet. I played it on gigs in that key also and for the very same reason. It had nothing to do with key color or anything exotic.
> Peace!
> JD
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 09:53:26 +0000
> From: Julian Vein <julianvein at blueyonder.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Choral key question
> To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Message-ID: <52B41396.6040602 at blueyonder.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 20/12/13 01:52, JD wrote:
>> Adhering to the standard keys applies primarily to faking bands, small
>> groups, society bands, etc. mainly as an organizational tool. Female
>> vocalists will almost always have to sing in a key more suited to
>> their range. With written arragngements, assuming good musicians,
>> anything goes. The Dorsey & Les Brown bands often played charts
>> written in more exotic keys and Harry James' opening solo on his mega
>> hit of 1942 "I Had the Craziest Dream" was played in the key of E.
>> That's six sharps or enharmonically six flats for trumpets, tenor
>> saxes & clarinets, D-flat for altos & baritone sax. The reason James
>> chose that key is because that tune in that key lays very comfortably
>> on the trumpet. I played it on gigs in that key also and for the very
>> same reason. It had nothing to do with key color or anything exotic.
>> Peace! JD
> ==================================
> I have always been curious about when we burst into spontaneous song,
> how do we choose which note to start on? Two songs come to mind which
> present problems are "Memories of You" and "Dancing in the Dark" which,
> if you start too high, you're gonna run into trouble!
>
> Julian Vein
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 14:56:52 +0000
> From: Don Cox <doncox at enterprise.net>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Apple's new Amberol
> To: 78-l at klickitat.78online.com
> Message-ID: <yam13137.2606.85015152 at smtp.ntlworld.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> On 19/12/2013, Mike Harkin wrote:
>
>> The Edison cylinder is still usable IF you have the right equipment,
>> and know-how, to use it! Same for his vertical- and lateral-cut flat
>> discs. In fact, the same for a lot of 'outdated' technology. Might the
>> same not be true of this? I would expect so. Come back in 100
>> years....
>>
> And visit a museum of the history of science and technology. They will
> certainly have some hundred-year-old computers, if not this particular
> model.
>
> Babbage's computers are being diligently (re)constructed.
>
> I agree that neither a cylinder nor an Apple Mac are useful to an
> ordinary person.
>
> Regards
> --
> Don Cox
> doncox at enterprise.net
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 14:59:06 +0000
> From: Don Cox <doncox at enterprise.net>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Choral key question
> To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Message-ID: <yam13137.342.85015152 at smtp.ntlworld.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> Hello David
>
> On 19/12/2013, David Lennick wrote:
>> Got an interesting problem here, a group of 4 sides recorded by Decca
>> in 1937, possibly on portable equipment, of a gospel group with piano
>> accompaniment in Chicago (or by a team from Chicago on remote), and
>> the speed drops radically on each side. Around 5 percent. My problem
>> is to figure which key they're singing in! Obviously a good
>> accompanist can play in just about any key, but which seems more
>> likely, A or A Flat? (Okay, or G Sharp?) To start in A I need to go up
>> close to 7%, and end the side around 2.2% up. A flat sounds a bit more
>> natural but the sides will end up 4% down at the end. Any thoughts,
>> > Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 15:12:54 +0000
> From: Don Cox <doncox at enterprise.net>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] KEY BALONEY, was Choral key question
> To: 78-l at klickitat.78online.com
> Message-ID: <yam13137.2714.85015152 at smtp.ntlworld.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> On 19/12/2013, JD wrote:
>
>
>> I'm not sure I expect to convince anyone who is a firm believer in the
>> color or difference between keys. Some fallacies die hard but I had to
>> say something or chance wearing out my teeth while gritting away.
>>
> My understanding is that there is no difference between keys if the
> instrument is tuned to Equal Temperament, but that if a more
> sophisticated tuning such as that used by the Bach family is employed,
> then the keys do sound different.
>
> Do choirs sing in equal temperament tuning ? Why should they ?
>
> Regards
> --
> Don Cox
> doncox at enterprise.net
>
====================================================================
It's always been my understanding (as we were taught in grammatr ot high school) that Bach invented equal temperament which is how instruments of fixed pitch are built, indtruments in which the pitch can not be varied as it's being played; the piano, organ, fretted instruments, etc. Choirs do NOT sing in equal temperament. Nor do orchestras play in equal temp. despite the fact that they may utilize fixed pitch instruments. Thus, the piano in playing with an orchstra is actually slightly out of tune with the orchestra even when tuned to the A-440 standard of the orchestra.
Our ears have become accustomed to the discrepancy (assuming they would notice it). Our ears have also become accustomed to equal temperament, to the point sometimes that in hearing a great violinist play a solo or cadenza in perfect tune it might sound a bit out of tune on certain intervals. Example: If a recording of a violin playing a simple tune alone for a few bars in perfet tune was played in prfect sync with a fixed pitch instrumnt playing the same notes in equal temp. the difference would then be pretty obvious on some notes to a trained ear if not most ears.
For equal temperament tuning, piano tuners will stretch the interval of a fourth slightly and compress the interval of a fifth slightly. The interval of a third is also adjusted. This is done so the instrument can play in any key and modulate to any other key without sounding out of tune. This was not possible with fixed pitch instruments prior to equal temperament. It's for this reason we were taught that Bach ivented equal temp.
With Choirs and orchestras the intervals are not adjusted. They are called perfect fourths, fifths, etc. If a piano was tuned without altering the intervals it would not be able to change keys without sounding out of tune. Choirs and orchestras automatically make the necessary adjustments as they perform. This is a simplistic explanation but that's the jist of it. Fixed pitch instrumnts are equal temp., choirs, orchestras, strings, etc. are not. Minor pitch adjustments are made in performance. Intervals of Thirds, fourths and fifths are called perfect Tfourths, fifths, etc. in orchestral tuning, they are not adjusted as in fixed pitch instruments. None of this has anyrthing to do with the sound or color of a given key. The idea that a given key has a different sound from another is based upon gross misconceptions.
Final example: A brass group playing a piece in C, for instance may give the imprssion that the same piece played in a higher or lower key has a different sound, more "romantic", brighter or whatever. Of course there will be an obvious difference in sound due to the fact that the instruments are playing in different rgisters and utilizing more or less rubing of the instruments. What's being heard is the difference in registers, how the instruments sound in those registers and NOT individual key colors. Take me out, coach, I've had enough.....
JD
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