[78-L] Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?

Wed Apr 4 19:23:33 PDT 2012

On 4/4/2012 9:32 PM, Steve Williams wrote:
> Herbert Berliner was using Marsh Equipment?

No, Compo pressed some Autographs for Canadian issue, including a few early 
Jesse Crawfords. So he recorded electrically for Marsh before recording 
acoustically for Victor.
I thought the type of equipment
> being used was never established, but that the Canadian recordings sounded
> better than the US Marsh stuff, even better than early Pallaphotophone.
> Sutton postulates that the first Victor tests, which are not documented
> either at Western Electric, nor as any WE or GE field test, were done by
> Compo.. There are only negative implications, where the Electric tests were
> NOT done..
>
> I have 19571, it seems to me they are the same orchestra. The electric side
> sounds like Jack Shilkret or the International Novelty Orchestra playing
> very carefully, possibly not being used to the mic and seating arrangement.
> However several researchers have indeed suggested the Electric was recorded
> in Montreal. Sound balance-wise a good comparison is with Waring's "Little
> Peach" recorded April 2nd for 19636, which may have been the first
> INTERNATIONAL Victor black label electric release, after 19626, which was
> only regional.  I have this record in a very clean E condition.

I have a copy as well. The electrical side doesn't have a take number, the 
catalogue number has a different font, and there's no other session in Rust 
where Shilkret could have recorded it electrically, at least not in the US.
>
> Compo DID have a New York office, which probably was electrically-equipped.
> Also, though Victor did not have an Electric studio until March, there was a
> studio at Western Electric, and "You and I" may have been done there as a
> Western Electric demo.. The electric side sounds like early Victor; with
> correct mic resonance, EQ, and all. Since Victor equipment was not being
> used under any scenario for the electric side of 19571, then it wouldn't
> have to be "Victor Electric speed" thus the pitch would be off. The acoustic
> side of 19571 sounds like Victor acoustic, such as Jack Shilkret's "Charley
> My Boy" 19420.  This is all speculation, while they were alive the right
> people were not asked the right questions about this change to electric.
>
> ..  Steve Williams  .

There is at least one earlier Victor electric issued to the public than 19626 
(Buenos Aires, Shilkret, March 20/25), the Miniature Concert by the Eight 
Popular Victor Artists..don't have the date handy but one side of it is from 
February, if I recall.

Here's the thing about 19571. The acoustical side plays in F (a tiny tad above 
F, easily adjusted by taking the speed down 0.5%). The electrical side doesn't. 
To play it in F you have to go down 3.8%. At 78 it plays closer to F# (go up 
2.3% and you got it). I think I prefer it in F, but that's quite a difference 
in speed, especially for Victor. Hmm. (yes, I just checked my copy.)

dl
>
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 20:57:32 -0400
> From: David Lennick<dlennick at sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?
> To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP5661CD7F488D122C22ED62BD320 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>
>> Compo issued electricals before other labels, but they were from Marsh
> Labs.
>> Tell me more about Compo doing Victor's electrical tests!
>> There's an interesting hybrid disc released only in Canada, purporting to
> be
>> Jack Shilkret's Orchestra doing YOU AND I acoustically on one side (blue
> label)
>> and electrically on the other (black label). The odd thing is that they are
>
>> likely not the same orchestra at all, and the electrical side appears to be
> of
>> Canadian origin but nobody's found out which orchestra did it. It sounds to
> me
>> as if someone copied the arrangement from the acoustical side and had a
> local
>> orchestra try and duplicate it. It also sounds as if the transcriber played
> the
>> acoustical version at the wrong speed because the sides don't match in
> pitch,
>> and not in an "acousticals play faster" fashion.
>
> dl
>
> On 4/3/2012 8:47 PM, Mike Daley wrote:
>> Except that it was Emile Berliner's son Herbert that started Compo, in
>> direct competition with his father.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compo_Company
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Steve Williams<jazzhunter at collector.org>
> wrote:
>>> Remember that this is tied in with introduction of electric recording.
> In
>>> Canada from the get-go electrically-recorded Victors identified the new
>>> process on the label as "V.E. Process", the VE in an oblong being
> required
>>> under the Western Electric contract to identify recordings made with
> their
>>> patented method.  Also the labels generally switched from blue to black,
>>> though continuing and reissued acoustic releases used a black label.  I
> have
>>> seen a blue "VE Process" label on a standard 10" dance band release, but
>>> that's rare.. Overall however both acoustic and Electric releases used
> the
>>> same batwing style.
>>>
>>> However, in the States, to protect the backlog of Acoustic recordings
>>> (though the story goes a bit deeper than that) electric releases were not
>>> acknowledged in any way, except for the VE symbol embedded in the runout
>>> area.  When Victor decided to admit to the superior Electric process in
>>> November 1925 they did it with a bang, ads in the papers, store flyers
> etc.
>>> and trademarked it as "Orthophonic."  At this time, to emphasise the big
>>> improvement, they introduced the scroll (or Octagon) label with the "VE"
> at
>>> the top.  Canada continued to use the batwing label except "VE Process"
> was
>>> changed to "VE Orthophonic" and later just "Orthophonic" with a tiny VE
>>> symbol above that. There was no big announcement of a change in Canadian
>>> releases, therefore probably that's why there was no big change in label
>>> style.
>>>
>>> Just by the way, The Compo Company in Montreal had North America's first
>>> electric studio actually releasing product in 1924.  The earliest Victor
>>> electric tests were done by Canadian Compo, which was founded by Berliner
>>> after he left Victor.  So Canada has a special place in the history of
>>> electric recording, along with Victor actually acknowledging Electric
>>> releases before the US.  Canadian Victor was AHEAD of the US, not
> "Behind"
>>> in doing anything...
>>>
>>> ..Steve Williams  ..
>>>
>>> Message: 9
>>> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 08:57:21 -0400
>>> From: David Lennick<dlennick at sympatico.ca>
>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Victor Scroll Labels in Canada?
>>> To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>>> Message-ID:<BLU0-SMTP495DF80E6A0182B6A40284BD4D0 at phx.gbl>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>>>
>>>> Nope, Canada never had them. Maybe a slightly modified scroll for the
>>> Program
>>>> Transcriptions, but for general releases Canadian Victor stuck with
> Batwing
>>>
>>>> right through 1946. We were even a year late changing that to RCA
> Victor,
>>> we
>>>> kept Buff Bluebird into 1939 and used the Staff label for only about six
>>> months
>>>> as well. The first Scroll label in Canada might have been on the lp
> Nilsson
>>>
>>>> Schmilsson.
>>>
>>> dl
>>>
>>> On 4/3/2012 1:30 AM, Clifford Bolling wrote:
>>>> In the U.S., Victor labels evolved from Batwing to Scroll to Ring design
>>> for their labels.
>>>> Did the Scroll label get skipped for Canadian pressings and go straight
>>> from Batwing to Rings??
>>>> I have some Canadian pressed 'HIS MASTER'S VOICE/VICTOR' label records
>>> that I know
>>>> were made in the 1940s that are still Batwing, but I don't recall ever
>>> seeing Canadian Scroll design labels.
>>>>
>>>> http://PDX78s.cdbpdx.com/CanSC/
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!  CDB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
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