[78-L] my first Monarch (Early Sleeves?)

[Michael Biel]

My album cover presentation is including a show of early sleeves because 
Steinweiss and his unknowledgable supporters have written that records 
came in plain unadorned sleeves before Steinweiss. While that might be 
true before 1906, it is not completely true afterwards.  Iit is 
interesting that this discussion again come up on the list just as I am 
starting the sleeve photography today from my collection. 

The stitched-sided dealer sleeves aand most other dealer sleeves are 
strictly European.  I draw mainly a blank on any type of American sleeve 
before 1906 -- printed or unprinted.  The Tomango and Patti cardboard 
sleeves with a picture behind the plastic covered label hole are 
landmarks, but Columgia also had special sleeves in 06 for the Marconi 
VelverTone discs, and had beautiful art sleeves, some with very extended 
and dated patent notices. 

I think the reason Victor and Columbia both started doing sleeves -- and 
why we do not see dealer sleeves in the U.S. -- is because of the patent 
notices.  I've seen a notation that the dealers were instructed that the 
records MUST be delivered to the customer in the company printed sleeves 
with the patent notices, especially when the two-sided records no longer 
had a blank side for the patent notice we see on Victor records between 
1904 and 1908.  Michael Corenthal's "Illustrated History of Recorded 
Sound Vol 2" pictures two sleeves, one from Larry Holdridge and the 
other from Larry Schlick, with extensive lists of Victor Records on the 
holeless back side.  LH's sleeve is titled "New Victor Records for 
December 1907" and pictures Victor accessories on the front including 
horn bags and machine carrying cases.  LS's sleeve is titled "175 Best 
Selling 10 inch Victor Records: 10-inch Records, 60 cents each".  The 
photos aren't distinct enough to make out titles, bit one record has a 2 
digit catalog number, about ten have three digits, and the rest are all 
four digits.

I urge ALL of you to get both of Corenthal's Iconography books NOW -- he 
has stopped supplying them but Kurt might have copies. They aren't 
perfect - because he was not a real researcher, just a collector and 
dealer, and the black and white reproduction of what were color original 
photos is not dark enough -  but you will love seeing the stuff he 
shows.  Kurt still has inexpensive copies of the Columbia label book 
Note the Naucks, er Nauck the Notes, er, you know what I mean, and you 
all must have it.  ALL of the questions about Victor, Monarch, DeLuxe, 
and DeLuxe Special labels would have been answered if you had a copy of 
Mike Sherman's Victor label books, but if you go to Kirt's site and look 
at the label galleries you will see a selection of early Victor and 
Columbia labels that will help you answer some of the questions that 
came up in this thread.  There also is info on the Victor Project web 
site.  (My DSL died during the typing of this and I can't double check 
this, and I want to get this out as soon as the connection returns!)

And I DO want to get pictures that some of you might have of pre-1910 
sleeves, especially U.S. but also European. 

Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com 

 

Matthew Duncan wrote:
> I would think stitched card sleeves with no details on is how these records were delivered to stores and then some stores would print details on the sleeves or have their own sleeves made.
>
> This is just a theory...also in England, many card covers simply bore the term "Gramophone Record" around the hole area on the sleeve and these were either stitched or taped up at the edges and these housed records during the 1900 to 1920 period before shop covers really took off.
>
> Matthew Duncan.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "bruce78rpm at comcast.net" <bruce78rpm at comcast.net>
> To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Sent: Sun, 28 March, 2010 15:27:41
> Subject: Re: [78-L] my first Monarch (Early Sleeves?)
>
> That is interesting, I can never recall seeing either Berliners or early Victors, Monarchs or Columbias in anyone's collection in an original sleeve of any kind. I wonder how these records were original sold. It is hard to believe that they just handed you the record without a protective sleeve . Does anyone have the answer? 
>
> Bruce 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: neechevoneeznayou at gmail.com 
> To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com> 
> Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 10:08:29 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
> Subject: Re: [78-L] my first Monarch 
>
> I don't have and never had any sleeves for my earliest records. Did 
> Berliners come in sleeves? 
>
> joe salerno 
>
>
> bruce78rpm at comcast.net wrote: 
>   
>> I have Monarchs in my Collection both Dog and Pre-dog and 7" & 10". I have never seen any specific sleeves for these records. What type of record sleeve were they sold with? Does anyone have an original Monarch or early Dog or Pre-dog Monarch Record sleeve they can show us ? 
>>
>> Bruce 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "George Anglin" <packardmarmon1940 at sbcglobal.net> 
>> To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com> 
>> Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 3:31:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
>> Subject: Re: [78-L] my first Monarch 
>>
>> I have several monarchs and curious as to their actual dates. My favorites are Dan W. Quinn doing "GENERAL HARD TACK" Nr. 2667, and Him doing " BILL BAILEY, WON'T YOU PLEASE COME HOME Nr. 1411. I think Bill Bailey is 1902 and Hard Tack is 1904. Am I right? They are scarce now although I found mine over 50 years ago at thrift stores in Tucson Ariz. Thanks. George Anglin 
>>
>> --- On Sat, 3/20/10, neechevoneeznayou at gmail.com <neechevoneeznayou at gmail.com> wrote: 
>>
>> From: neechevoneeznayou at gmail.com <neechevoneeznayou at gmail.com> 
>> Subject: [78-L] my first Monarch 
>> To: "78-l" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com> 
>> Date: Saturday, March 20, 2010, 10:07 PM 
>>
>> Finally acquired one. I've only seen 2, one 7" and one 10". Wish I could 
>> have got the smaller one also but it was for sale only with the 
>> machine in an antique store. 
>>
>> This one os Monarch 2376, 10" sf "beautiful bells chime on trinity 
>> chime". Is the date known? When was the Monarch labelin use? 
>> Monarch and Record are on either side of hole, dog/phono are on top 
>>
>> This is only Monarch style label I've ever seen, and is not like the one 
>> in Kurt's current Nauction. 
>>
>> All info appreciated. 
>>
>> joe salerno 
>>