[78-L] Pressed in WHAT material...

[fnarf at comcast.net]

Rather than a FAQ, why not share the information with the world, and put it into Wikipedia? Anyone can edit or add pages.

You won't get very far without verifiable references, but I'm sure folks here have roomfuls (roomsful?) of those. 



----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Biel" <mbiel at mbiel.com>
To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 11:23:51 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [78-L] Pressed in WHAT material...

This thread contains very good postings that should all be combined into
one FAQ.  As an example of how much it is needed is the web site of the
California record pressing plant that was mentioned a few days ago 
http://www.erikarecords.com/  They have on its history page that 78s
were "manufactured by gluing heavy vinyl 'sides' to a thick paper core
and were, consequently, not only quite heavy, but prone to
disintegration over time."  (They also seem to believe that 45s came
before LPs.)

I do want to add that Berliner used celluloid for his discs in the early
1890s before shellac -- possibly by 1889 but definitely in 1892 thru 94.
 There should be some additional research done on whether Berliner
really used hard rubber at all.  I tend to think that some might have
mistaken the celluloid pressings for hard rubber because hard rubber is
mentioned in passing in a Berliner letter (I think).  I seem to think
that he might have experimented in having pressings made but found them
lacking.   I believe also that the Dethlefson and Frow books detail that
the earliest Diamond Discs are also surfaced with celluloid, which they
called the transfer sheet process.  I had not heard the explanation that
this was really rubber coated with condensite.  Can we have a reference?
 Also, in addition to the coreless Lambert celluloids, the cardboard
cored Indistructibles and the plaster cored Edison Blue Amberols, there
also were the U.S. Everlasting cylinders which had some sort of hard tar
core.  

Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com 


-------- Original Message --------

From: John Maeder <appywander at hotmail.com>
>>> Edison's chemists produced a substance nearly identical to Bakelite (which was developed by Leo Bakeland just a few miles away and practically at the same time) that Edison named 'Condensite'. Both are phenolic resins derived from coal tar using phenolic acid ('phenol') as a solvent. The surfaces of Edison's 'Diamond Disc' records were made from this substance and comprised the playing surface. The Condensite was laminated to the record core, the core being composed of a mixture of wood flour (finely ground sawdust), hide glue as a binder, and later, clay, to resist moisture absorbtion. For a time, a thin layer of rubber was between the core and the surface, but this proved prone to delaminating and use was discontinued. During WWI, Edison's supply of phenol feom Germany's Bayer Pharaceutical was cut off due to Britain's naval blockade, so Edison began manufacturing his own. Within a short time, his company was supplying phenol to all the allied countries. However, his ph
 enol was not as refined as Bayer's, consequently Diamond Discs produced during the WWI period have noisier surfaces than earlier and later examples.

The wiki articles are also incorrect in saying that the records were
produced by "the Edison Electric Co". Not true! They were produced by
Thomas A. Edison, Inc. and many were marked "A Product Of The Edison
Laboratories" on the label. Someone needs to edit the wiki articles!


>> The very earliest (1887-1890) cylinder records used in the Edison Talking Doll and with Edison's 'Improved' and 'Class M' Phonographs were blended wax compounds that proved fragile and difficult to record upon due to atmospheric changes in those pre-HVAC days, and were subject to extreme wear upon playback. After 1890. research was begun on using non-lathering metallic soap compounds (i.e., zinc, lead, tin stearates) to make cylinders. These early cylinders were highly acidic and tended to foul the iron cutting stylii by rusting them almost immediately. They also tended to cloud over overnight on their surface with a chemical glaze that was difficult to cut through and caused greater surface noise upon playback. I have heard that these cylinders smelled much like strong cigar tobacco. These problems were largely solved by the collaborative work of Thomas Hood Macdonald (chief engineer of American Graphophone) and Adolph Melzer (and his brother), soap chemists of Evansville
 , Indiana contracted by Macdonald.

Also 1886-1895 (at the very latest), were the 1-5/16"x6" constant-bore
thin cardboard cylinders developed by Chichester Bell and Charles Sumner
Tainter for their invention, the Graphophone. These cylinders were
thinly coated with an ozocerite was and unlike Edison's much thicker
solid 'wax' cylinders, were not shaveable and re-recordable. These were
rendered obsolete very quickly by Edison's format and many Graphophones
were converted to accept Edison's cylinder with the addition of a
tapered-bore removable mandrel.

Molded celluloid cylinders were first developed in a proprietary format
by Lioret in France, and then independently by Philpot in England
and/with Lambert in the US (1900). Lambert cylinders have no cardboard
core -- they are completely thin celluloid and only contact the mandrel
on the ends. Varian Harris in the US also developed molded celluloid
cylinders, and these do have thicker cardboard cores. The subject of
molded celluloid cylinders is a subject all to itself!

In 1902, Edison produced molded cylinders in metallic soap. These are
the relatively ubiquitous cylinders commonly called "black wax" by
collectors today. While the soap compound that these are made from
(developed by Edison's chemist Jonas Aylesworth) is harder than previous
formulations (since shaving and recording was not applicable), the real
neccesity of the formulation is a predictable shrinkage rate, since the
hot soap when injected into the mold, must shrink the depth of the
groove plus a little more when the mold is chilled in order for the
record to drop cleanly from the mold. The introduction of four-minute
wax Amberols in late 1908 required an even harder soap to hold the walls
of the fine 200tpi groove. This harder soap resulted, unfortunately, in
a much more brittle record!

From: ampex354 at gmail.com

> Polyvinyl chloride was developed in the 1930s, and was used for pressing
> transcriptions almost immediately. It wasn't used for commercially released
> records until the late 1940s.
> 
> Very early cylinders were a kind of wax compound, but by the 1890s a harder
> compound Edison came to describe as a 'metallic soap' was used. The Lambert
> company was one of the first to use celluloid to mould his cylinders from
> (these cylinders had a cardboard core), and Edison began using celluloid for
> his Blue Amberol cylinders (using a plaster of Paris core).
> 
> You are correct, AFAIK bakelite was never used for record manufacture.
> 



On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 8:10 AM, Milan P Milovanovic
<milanpmilovanovic4 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hello list members,
> >
> > I came across this article:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellac
> >
> > Also this one:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakelite
> >
> > Both claimed that "some" records were made from bakelite:
> >
> > "Until the advent of vinyl around the 1940s, most gramophone records were
> > pressed from shellac compounds (although some were made from bakelite)"
> >
> > "Recording cylinders produced by the Edison Electric Company (now General
> > Electric) and 78-rpm phonograph records were originally made of Bakelite. "
> >
> > I would like to know if such statements are close to the truth. I always
> > thought that no bakelite was used in phonograph record production.
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Milan

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