[78-L] Gay?

Sun Jan 25 12:49:19 PST 2009

Your apprehension of Wikipedia is mistaken. For one thing, prejudicial edits
are almost invariably reverted almost immediately (Wikipedia has a much
lower error rate than, say, Britannica), and for another, every statement
entered into Wikipedia must be attributed. The devotion to full attribution
has gotten very powerful in the past few years; perhaps it's been a while
since you've looked?

Anyways, the attribution for the Wikipedia claims includes this:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gay which says, in part:

"OED gives 1951 as earliest date for slang meaning "homosexual" (adj.), but
this is certainly too late; gey cat "homosexual boy" is attested in N.
Erskine's 1933 dictionary of "Underworld & Prison Slang;" the term gey cat
(gey is a Scot. variant of gay) was used as far back as 1893 in Amer.Eng.
for "young hobo," one who is new on the road and usually in the company of
an older tramp, with catamite connotations. But Josiah Flynt ["Tramping With
Tramps," 1905] defines gay cat as, "An amateur tramp who works when his
begging courage fails him." Gey cats also were said to be tramps who offered
sexual services to women. The "Dictionary of American Slang" reports that
gay (adj.) was used by homosexuals, among themselves, in this sense since at
least 1920. Rawson ["Wicked Words"] notes a male prostitute using gay in
reference to male homosexuals (but also to female prostitutes) in London's
notorious Cleveland Street Scandal of 1889. Ayto ["20th Century Words"]
calls attention to the ambiguous use of the word in the 1868 song "The Gay
Young Clerk in the Dry Goods Store," by U.S. female impersonator Will S.
Hays. The word gay in the 1890s had an overall tinge of promiscuity -- a gay
house was a brothel. The suggestion of immorality in the word can be traced
back to 1637."

> -----Original Message-----
> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com 
> [mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of 
> bruce78rpm at comcast.net
> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 12:36 PM
> To: 78-L Mail List
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Gay?
> 
> you can't go by Wikipedia!!! anything in there can be 
> corrupted and exploited on a whim by anyone who happens to be 
> a wikipedia member and is prejudicial one way or the other. . 
> That should be left to the so-called scholars and experts. 
> What does Mr. Webster say? Can you find an encyclopedia or 
> Websters dictionary written prior to the 1970's that gives 
> any reference to the word Gay as meaning a Homosexual? Let's 
> have some concrete, reliable and credible evidence. If you 
> can show me that's fine, I will concede. 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Weiner" <djwein at earthlink.net> 
> To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com> 
> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 3:05:39 PM GMT -05:00 
> US/Canada Eastern 
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Gay? 
> 
> I'm not insinuating anything Bruce - check Wikipedia for a 
> comprehensive use 
> of the word through history, including a reference to the 
> Astaire-Rogers 
> film. Noel Coward's song "Green Carnations" from BITTERSWEET 
> has an early 
> "mainstream" use of the word in its latter-day meaning: 
> 
> "Pretty boys, witty boys, 
> You may sneer 
> At our disintegration. 
> Haughty boys, naughty boys, 
> Dear, dear, dear! 
> Swooning with affectation... 
> And as we are the reason 
> For the "Nineties" being gay, 
> We all wear a green carnation." 
> 
> Dave W. 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com 
> [mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of 
> bruce78rpm at comcast.net 
> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 2:58 PM 
> To: 78-L Mail List 
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Gay? 
> 
> I object to this insinuation about the history of the use of 
> the word. Look 
> at this clip: 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-xfaiAftJI There is no way on 
> earth that 
> Ginger was a lesbian, and the story line has nothing to do 
> with gay people, 
> and if that word was prominently used to refer to Homosexuals 
> & Lesbians as 
> Gays in 1934, then the play and the movie never would have 
> taken on that 
> Title. wouldn't you agree? 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Weiner" <djwein at earthlink.net> 
> To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com> 
> Sent: Sunday, January 25, 2009 2:04:41 PM GMT -05:00 
> US/Canada Eastern 
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Gay? 
> 
> As someone who's gay AND homosexual, I don't know how you can 
> say the word 
> was "stolen" - it's been used in its "current" meaning for 
> over a century in 
> 
> some circles - in the last half-century it has moved to the 
> mainstream in 
> that meaning. Aren't there hundreds of words out there with 
> more than one 
> meaning? (Like "blue" the color and "blue" the feeling?) And 
> "homophobic" is 
> 
> not a fear of men in toto- it's a fear of gay men! 
> 
> Dave W. 
> 
> DAVID BURNHAM wrote: 
> > Earl wrote: 
> > 
> > (I'm not using 
> > "gay"--I'm gay, but not homosexual--an example of a word 
> being stolen) 
> > 
> > In the old 78 recording of "My Old Kentucky Home", I'm sure 
> Foster wasn't 
> implying that in summer the African-Americans are homosexual. 
> (I always try 
> to include a reference to a 78 in any posting.) 
> > 
> > But talking about stolen words, doesn't "homophobic" really 
> mean a fear of 
> 
> men? I'm really asking because I don't know - if it doesn't, 
> what does? 
> > 
> > db 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> Actually, it was I who wrote that. What I'm objecting to the modern 
> pilfering of the English language to supply euphemisms for certain 
> practices that are frowned upon by some. Conversely, if I describe 
> myself as "straight", that doesn't mean I'm not a homosexual, 
> but that 
> I'm honest. 
> 
> Have you noticed that people who live normal lives are often 
> described 
> in negative terms, e.g. non-drinker, non-believer, non-smoker, 
> non-driver etc? 
> 
> Julian Vein 
> 
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