[78-L] Race observations

Fri Jan 23 11:54:21 PST 2009

And keep that banjo off your knee.!

Al S.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Royal Pemberton" <ampex354 at gmail.com>
To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 1:00 PM
Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations

>I meant to say, 'mammy' is informal or colloquial usage.
>
> On 1/23/09, Royal Pemberton <ampex354 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I was chatting with a Scottish friend of mine a few months ago about
>> music, and my surprise at some of the songs the Scottish pop singer
>> Lena Zavaroni had recorded on her first LP in 1974.  Among them were a
>> couple of songs associated with Al Jolson, 'Rock-a-bye your baby with
>> a dixie melody' and 'My mammy'.
>>
>> My friend explained to me that the latter was not necessarily
>> considered anything to do with blackface or minstrelsy in Scotland, as
>> 'mammy' there was conventional and quite acceptable lingo for someone
>> referring to their own mother.
>>
>> On 1/23/09, bruce78rpm at comcast.net <bruce78rpm at comcast.net> wrote:
>>> I collect all sorts of records from that era that you speak of, not from
>>> a
>>> standpoint of Racism or Prejudice, but from a standpoint of recorded
>>> sound
>>> history. Obviously what was acceptable entertainment then, is not
>>> socially
>>> acceptable now, but I am happy that I am able preserve this small peek 
>>> at
>>> what Minstrels, and racial and ethical stereotypical humor was like back
>>> in
>>> the early formulative days of recorded sound. We were a large "melting
>>> pot"
>>> back then and it was only natural that humor and comedy that poked fun 
>>> at
>>> perceived stereotypes, would emerge as a major form of entertainment on
>>> record and in vaudville and even early films. This was an age when
>>> Minstrel
>>> shows even on the local level were still popular and as I recall still
>>> being
>>> held as late as the mid-50's. Jolson started out in Minstrelsy and 
>>> milked
>>> the sentimentality of it right up until the end. Does that make him a
>>> racist
>>> or a bigot? I don't think so. These things are and will always be a part
>>> of
>>> recorded soun
>>>  d history,not to be hidden because they are today socially unaccetable,
>>> but
>>> embraced as historical examples of what entertainment was like in the
>>> early
>>> years, and also as a lesson to show how far we have come. We just 
>>> elected
>>> our first African American President, so you can't get anymore post
>>> racial
>>> than that !!
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Tom" <nice_guy_with_an_mba at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>>> Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:07:09 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations
>>>
>>>
>>> What is it, exactly, about American art forms that depict
>>> African-Americans
>>> in the most demeaning, pejorative, and degrading light that you guys 
>>> find
>>> redeeming and worthwhile?
>>>
>>> I'd really like to know.
>>>
>>> You guys are big fans of Al Jolson (and now, it seems, his source of
>>> inspriation, if you want to call it that, Stephen Foster) who made a
>>> career
>>> of sorts, by depicting African-Americans as wide-eyed, lustful,
>>> disorganized, ignorant and inferior to whites.
>>>
>>> Is there supposed to be something ennobling artistically in those sorts
>>> of
>>> stereotypes? If so, would you mind expanding on what it is?
>>>
>>> What about Buckwheat and Amos-'n-Andy? You guys overlooked them.
>>>
>>> And the use of the word "nigger" to refer to people of African American
>>> descent was always derogatory, offensive and racist and still is
>>> irrespective of whether it appeared in Broadway shows, in movies, on the
>>> stage, in audio recordings or elsewhere. It was never quaint or
>>> affectionate, much less "endearing".
>>>
>>> And by the way, no one performs Stephen Foster or Al Jolson songs any
>>> more
>>> and for good reason.
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Chris Zwarg <doctordisc at truesoundtransfers.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Chris Zwarg <doctordisc at truesoundtransfers.de>
>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations
>>> To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>>> Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 4:08 AM
>>>
>>> At 07:04 23.01.2009, you wrote:
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "DAVID BURNHAM" <burnhamd at rogers.com>
>>>>>In the generation before ours, (Steven's
>>>>> and mine), the n-word seemed to be acceptable even in polite company.
>>> It
>>>>> occurs twice in the 1936 recording of "Mikado", famously in
>>> "Showboat",
>>>>> many times in the Shilkret album of Stephen Foster and, of course, in
>>>>> countless "coon song" records. To my knowledge, in none of
>>> these cases is
>>>>> the term used derogatorily, in fact in some cases it's used
>>>>> affectionately.
>>>
>>> At face value it is derogatory in "Mikado", but Gilbert put it there
>>> in a farcical vein, as part of Ko-Ko's "little list" of despicable
>>> individuals he'd like to see executed. A few moments later it is 
>>> revealed
>>> in
>>> the story that despite this mighty rant - BTW set to the most tip-toeing
>>> and
>>> non-ranting music imaginable - he couldn't even kill a bluebottle. The
>>> ominous list contains among others the author himself ("the judicial
>>> humorist" - Gilbert had been a lawyer before he turned to writing
>>> operettas), and traditionally, in the last verse, any current celebrity
>>> the
>>> singer and producer find a way to fit into the metre.
>>>
>>> I didn't dare to say this yesterday, but now I'll chime in that I
>>> always found both the Foster and "coon" songs I heard on old records
>>> endearing rather than condescending. I have no problem imagining the
>>> "heroes" of many of these songs as likeable real persons I could get
>>> along with splendidly - precisely the last thing a racist (as I
>>> understand
>>> that
>>> word) would want.
>>>
>>> All the songs you quote are so far removed from being racist agitprop
>>> that
>>> the
>>> cuts or bowdlerizations common today to remove the "offensive" word(s)
>>> - or in case of Foster the suppression of the whole genre from the
>>> current
>>> repertoire except maybe as instrumental pieces - strike me as showing a
>>> lack
>>> of
>>> respect for the integrity of these works of art. To not use a word today
>>> in
>>> conversation - as I learned the hard way here very recently - is one
>>> thing,
>>> to
>>> "correct" long-dead authors something very different, and endorsing
>>> one does not make the other more palatable. It's like deciding that, 
>>> with
>>> our today's listening expectations, the lack of "blue" notes and
>>> jazz phrasing in Beethoven's 9th is a defect and should be
>>> "remedied" to "improve" the work.
>>>
>>> Chris Zwarg
>>>
>>>
>>>>You might say that because I'm not Afro-American myself,
>>>>> that I have no right to express an opinion on how offensive this might
>>> be
>>>>> and I would offer no argument to that observation. I can never
>>> experience
>>>>> the life of a black in a white community but I have found myself
>>> amongst
>>>>> entirely black groups of friends and had them calling me names that
>>> are
>>>>> the counter-parts of the n-word in that community but we were fooling
>>>>> around and no offense on either part was intended or felt.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can foresee the day when the term "gay" is going to be
>>> unacceptable.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know there are many Jewish posters on this list and while the word
>>> "Jew"
>>>>> is probably how they would refer to themselves, I'm sure
>>> they've all heard
>>>>> that word used in an offensive context. Sometimes I believe there is
>>> too
>>>>> much emphasis put on a word and too little on the genuine feelings
>>> between
>>>>> groups in society. A couple of decades ago, the term "frog"
>>> was introduced
>>>>> as an derogatory term for Quebecers but instead of being offended by
>>> it,
>>>>> they ran with it, introducing terms such as "frog power" and
>>> it lost it's
>>>>> impact. Back in the late 50s and early 60s the term "dummie"
>>> was
>>>>> considered politically incorrect, (although that description
>>> wasn't in use
>>>>> yet), but today the term has been cleared, probably because the term
>>> can
>>>>> no longer be used to refer to someone who is mute so it now only has
>>> one
>>>>> meaning, (political correctness for dummies). You still often see
>>> plumbing
>>>>> connections which are called "Siamese connections", okay
>>> perhaps because
>>>>> there
>>>>> is no longer a country by that name. Are we still using the term
>>> "Dutch
>>>>> treat" or "going Dutch"? That word itself is offensive
>>> to some
>>>>> Nederlanders while others say that's what they are. I don't
>>> know what
>>>>> "Indian giver" has been replaced by.
>>>>> Anyway, that's my $.02 worth!
>>>>>
>>>>Point being that the unacceptability of "N****r" in my post...and
>>> in my
>>>>growing up...
>>>>was strictly a PERSONAL experience!! This was NOT standard among those
>>>>of my age demographic...it was just the way *I* was told to behave...!!
>>>>
>>>>Sadly, the human race is divided into easily identifiable 
>>>>groups...almost
>>>>ALL of
>>>>whom cordially hate one another!
>>>>
>>>>...stevenc
>>>>
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>>
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