[78-L] Race observations

Fri Jan 23 10:00:37 PST 2009

I meant to say, 'mammy' is informal or colloquial usage.

On 1/23/09, Royal Pemberton <ampex354 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I was chatting with a Scottish friend of mine a few months ago about
> music, and my surprise at some of the songs the Scottish pop singer
> Lena Zavaroni had recorded on her first LP in 1974.  Among them were a
> couple of songs associated with Al Jolson, 'Rock-a-bye your baby with
> a dixie melody' and 'My mammy'.
>
> My friend explained to me that the latter was not necessarily
> considered anything to do with blackface or minstrelsy in Scotland, as
> 'mammy' there was conventional and quite acceptable lingo for someone
> referring to their own mother.
>
> On 1/23/09, bruce78rpm at comcast.net <bruce78rpm at comcast.net> wrote:
>> I collect all sorts of records from that era that you speak of, not from
>> a
>> standpoint of Racism or Prejudice, but from a standpoint of recorded
>> sound
>> history. Obviously what was acceptable entertainment then, is not
>> socially
>> acceptable now, but I am happy that I am able preserve this small peek at
>> what Minstrels, and racial and ethical stereotypical humor was like back
>> in
>> the early formulative days of recorded sound. We were a large "melting
>> pot"
>> back then and it was only natural that humor and comedy that poked fun at
>> perceived stereotypes, would emerge as a major form of entertainment on
>> record and in vaudville and even early films. This was an age when
>> Minstrel
>> shows even on the local level were still popular and as I recall still
>> being
>> held as late as the mid-50's. Jolson started out in Minstrelsy and milked
>> the sentimentality of it right up until the end. Does that make him a
>> racist
>> or a bigot? I don't think so. These things are and will always be a part
>> of
>> recorded soun
>>  d history,not to be hidden because they are today socially unaccetable,
>> but
>> embraced as historical examples of what entertainment was like in the
>> early
>> years, and also as a lesson to show how far we have come. We just elected
>> our first African American President, so you can't get anymore post
>> racial
>> than that !!
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Tom" <nice_guy_with_an_mba at yahoo.com>
>> To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>> Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:07:09 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations
>>
>>
>> What is it, exactly, about American art forms that depict
>> African-Americans
>> in the most demeaning, pejorative, and degrading light that you guys find
>> redeeming and worthwhile?
>>
>> I'd really like to know.
>>
>> You guys are big fans of Al Jolson (and now, it seems, his source of
>> inspriation, if you want to call it that, Stephen Foster) who made a
>> career
>> of sorts, by depicting African-Americans as wide-eyed, lustful,
>> disorganized, ignorant and inferior to whites.
>>
>> Is there supposed to be something ennobling artistically in those sorts
>> of
>> stereotypes? If so, would you mind expanding on what it is?
>>
>> What about Buckwheat and Amos-'n-Andy? You guys overlooked them.
>>
>> And the use of the word "nigger" to refer to people of African American
>> descent was always derogatory, offensive and racist and still is
>> irrespective of whether it appeared in Broadway shows, in movies, on the
>> stage, in audio recordings or elsewhere. It was never quaint or
>> affectionate, much less "endearing".
>>
>> And by the way, no one performs Stephen Foster or Al Jolson songs any
>> more
>> and for good reason.
>>
>>
>> --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Chris Zwarg <doctordisc at truesoundtransfers.de>
>> wrote:
>>
>> From: Chris Zwarg <doctordisc at truesoundtransfers.de>
>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations
>> To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>> Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 4:08 AM
>>
>> At 07:04 23.01.2009, you wrote:
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "DAVID BURNHAM" <burnhamd at rogers.com>
>>>>In the generation before ours, (Steven's
>>>> and mine), the n-word seemed to be acceptable even in polite company.
>> It
>>>> occurs twice in the 1936 recording of "Mikado", famously in
>> "Showboat",
>>>> many times in the Shilkret album of Stephen Foster and, of course, in
>>>> countless "coon song" records. To my knowledge, in none of
>> these cases is
>>>> the term used derogatorily, in fact in some cases it's used
>>>> affectionately.
>>
>> At face value it is derogatory in "Mikado", but Gilbert put it there
>> in a farcical vein, as part of Ko-Ko's "little list" of despicable
>> individuals he'd like to see executed. A few moments later it is revealed
>> in
>> the story that despite this mighty rant - BTW set to the most tip-toeing
>> and
>> non-ranting music imaginable - he couldn't even kill a bluebottle. The
>> ominous list contains among others the author himself ("the judicial
>> humorist" - Gilbert had been a lawyer before he turned to writing
>> operettas), and traditionally, in the last verse, any current celebrity
>> the
>> singer and producer find a way to fit into the metre.
>>
>> I didn't dare to say this yesterday, but now I'll chime in that I
>> always found both the Foster and "coon" songs I heard on old records
>> endearing rather than condescending. I have no problem imagining the
>> "heroes" of many of these songs as likeable real persons I could get
>> along with splendidly - precisely the last thing a racist (as I
>> understand
>> that
>> word) would want.
>>
>> All the songs you quote are so far removed from being racist agitprop
>> that
>> the
>> cuts or bowdlerizations common today to remove the "offensive" word(s)
>> - or in case of Foster the suppression of the whole genre from the
>> current
>> repertoire except maybe as instrumental pieces - strike me as showing a
>> lack
>> of
>> respect for the integrity of these works of art. To not use a word today
>> in
>> conversation - as I learned the hard way here very recently - is one
>> thing,
>> to
>> "correct" long-dead authors something very different, and endorsing
>> one does not make the other more palatable. It's like deciding that, with
>> our today's listening expectations, the lack of "blue" notes and
>> jazz phrasing in Beethoven's 9th is a defect and should be
>> "remedied" to "improve" the work.
>>
>> Chris Zwarg
>>
>>
>>>You might say that because I'm not Afro-American myself,
>>>> that I have no right to express an opinion on how offensive this might
>> be
>>>> and I would offer no argument to that observation. I can never
>> experience
>>>> the life of a black in a white community but I have found myself
>> amongst
>>>> entirely black groups of friends and had them calling me names that
>> are
>>>> the counter-parts of the n-word in that community but we were fooling
>>>> around and no offense on either part was intended or felt.
>>>>
>>>> I can foresee the day when the term "gay" is going to be
>> unacceptable.
>>>>
>>>> I know there are many Jewish posters on this list and while the word
>> "Jew"
>>>> is probably how they would refer to themselves, I'm sure
>> they've all heard
>>>> that word used in an offensive context. Sometimes I believe there is
>> too
>>>> much emphasis put on a word and too little on the genuine feelings
>> between
>>>> groups in society. A couple of decades ago, the term "frog"
>> was introduced
>>>> as an derogatory term for Quebecers but instead of being offended by
>> it,
>>>> they ran with it, introducing terms such as "frog power" and
>> it lost it's
>>>> impact. Back in the late 50s and early 60s the term "dummie"
>> was
>>>> considered politically incorrect, (although that description
>> wasn't in use
>>>> yet), but today the term has been cleared, probably because the term
>> can
>>>> no longer be used to refer to someone who is mute so it now only has
>> one
>>>> meaning, (political correctness for dummies). You still often see
>> plumbing
>>>> connections which are called "Siamese connections", okay
>> perhaps because
>>>> there
>>>> is no longer a country by that name. Are we still using the term
>> "Dutch
>>>> treat" or "going Dutch"? That word itself is offensive
>> to some
>>>> Nederlanders while others say that's what they are. I don't
>> know what
>>>> "Indian giver" has been replaced by.
>>>> Anyway, that's my $.02 worth!
>>>>
>>>Point being that the unacceptability of "N****r" in my post...and
>> in my
>>>growing up...
>>>was strictly a PERSONAL experience!! This was NOT standard among those
>>>of my age demographic...it was just the way *I* was told to behave...!!
>>>
>>>Sadly, the human race is divided into easily identifiable groups...almost
>>>ALL of
>>>whom cordially hate one another!
>>>
>>>...stevenc
>>>
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>>
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