[78-L] Race observations

Fri Jan 23 09:42:08 PST 2009

Perhaps, but this particular thread emerged because Chris referred to President Obama as "your nigger president", which conveys the impression that there's another agenda at work quite apart from preserving our artistic heritage.

--- On Fri, 1/23/09, bruce78rpm at comcast.net <bruce78rpm at comcast.net> wrote:

From: bruce78rpm at comcast.net <bruce78rpm at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations
To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 12:33 PM

I collect all sorts of records from that era that you speak of, not from a
standpoint of Racism or Prejudice, but from a standpoint of recorded sound
history. Obviously what was acceptable entertainment then, is not socially
acceptable now, but I am happy that I am able preserve this small peek at what
Minstrels, and racial and ethical stereotypical humor was like back in the early
formulative days of recorded sound. We were a large "melting pot" back
then and it was only natural that humor and comedy that poked fun at perceived
stereotypes, would emerge as a major form of entertainment on record and in
vaudville and even early films. This was an age when Minstrel shows even on the
local level were still popular and as I recall still being held as late as the
mid-50's. Jolson started out in Minstrelsy and milked the sentimentality of
it right up until the end. Does that make him a racist or a bigot? I don't
think so. These things are and will always be a part of recorded soun
 d history,not to be hidden because they are today socially unaccetable, but
embraced as historical examples of what entertainment was like in the early
years, and also as a lesson to show how far we have come. We just elected our
first African American President, so you can't get anymore post racial than
that !! 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom" <nice_guy_with_an_mba at yahoo.com> 
To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com> 
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:07:09 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern 
Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations 

What is it, exactly, about American art forms that depict African-Americans in
the most demeaning, pejorative, and degrading light that you guys find redeeming
and worthwhile? 

I'd really like to know. 

You guys are big fans of Al Jolson (and now, it seems, his source of
inspriation, if you want to call it that, Stephen Foster) who made a career of
sorts, by depicting African-Americans as wide-eyed, lustful, disorganized,
ignorant and inferior to whites. 

Is there supposed to be something ennobling artistically in those sorts of
stereotypes? If so, would you mind expanding on what it is? 

What about Buckwheat and Amos-'n-Andy? You guys overlooked them. 

And the use of the word "nigger" to refer to people of African
American descent was always derogatory, offensive and racist and still is
irrespective of whether it appeared in Broadway shows, in movies, on the stage,
in audio recordings or elsewhere. It was never quaint or affectionate, much less
"endearing". 

And by the way, no one performs Stephen Foster or Al Jolson songs any more and
for good reason. 

--- On Fri, 1/23/09, Chris Zwarg <doctordisc at truesoundtransfers.de>
wrote: 

From: Chris Zwarg <doctordisc at truesoundtransfers.de> 
Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations 
To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com> 
Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 4:08 AM 

At 07:04 23.01.2009, you wrote: 
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "DAVID BURNHAM" <burnhamd at rogers.com> 
>>In the generation before ours, (Steven's 
>> and mine), the n-word seemed to be acceptable even in polite company. 
It 
>> occurs twice in the 1936 recording of "Mikado", famously in 
"Showboat", 
>> many times in the Shilkret album of Stephen Foster and, of course, in 
>> countless "coon song" records. To my knowledge, in none of 
these cases is 
>> the term used derogatorily, in fact in some cases it's used 
>> affectionately. 

At face value it is derogatory in "Mikado", but Gilbert put it there 
in a farcical vein, as part of Ko-Ko's "little list" of
despicable 
individuals he'd like to see executed. A few moments later it is revealed
in 
the story that despite this mighty rant - BTW set to the most tip-toeing and 
non-ranting music imaginable - he couldn't even kill a bluebottle. The 
ominous list contains among others the author himself ("the judicial 
humorist" - Gilbert had been a lawyer before he turned to writing 
operettas), and traditionally, in the last verse, any current celebrity the 
singer and producer find a way to fit into the metre. 

I didn't dare to say this yesterday, but now I'll chime in that I 
always found both the Foster and "coon" songs I heard on old records 
endearing rather than condescending. I have no problem imagining the 
"heroes" of many of these songs as likeable real persons I could get 
along with splendidly - precisely the last thing a racist (as I understand that

word) would want. 

All the songs you quote are so far removed from being racist agitprop that the 
cuts or bowdlerizations common today to remove the "offensive"
word(s) 
- or in case of Foster the suppression of the whole genre from the current 
repertoire except maybe as instrumental pieces - strike me as showing a lack of

respect for the integrity of these works of art. To not use a word today in 
conversation - as I learned the hard way here very recently - is one thing, to 
"correct" long-dead authors something very different, and endorsing 
one does not make the other more palatable. It's like deciding that, with 
our today's listening expectations, the lack of "blue" notes and 
jazz phrasing in Beethoven's 9th is a defect and should be 
"remedied" to "improve" the work. 

Chris Zwarg 

>You might say that because I'm not Afro-American myself, 
>> that I have no right to express an opinion on how offensive this might

be 
>> and I would offer no argument to that observation. I can never 
experience 
>> the life of a black in a white community but I have found myself 
amongst 
>> entirely black groups of friends and had them calling me names that 
are 
>> the counter-parts of the n-word in that community but we were fooling 
>> around and no offense on either part was intended or felt. 
>> 
>> I can foresee the day when the term "gay" is going to be 
unacceptable. 
>> 
>> I know there are many Jewish posters on this list and while the word 
"Jew" 
>> is probably how they would refer to themselves, I'm sure 
they've all heard 
>> that word used in an offensive context. Sometimes I believe there is 
too 
>> much emphasis put on a word and too little on the genuine feelings 
between 
>> groups in society. A couple of decades ago, the term "frog" 
was introduced 
>> as an derogatory term for Quebecers but instead of being offended by 
it, 
>> they ran with it, introducing terms such as "frog power" and

it lost it's 
>> impact. Back in the late 50s and early 60s the term "dummie"

was 
>> considered politically incorrect, (although that description 
wasn't in use 
>> yet), but today the term has been cleared, probably because the term 
can 
>> no longer be used to refer to someone who is mute so it now only has 
one 
>> meaning, (political correctness for dummies). You still often see 
plumbing 
>> connections which are called "Siamese connections", okay 
perhaps because 
>> there 
>> is no longer a country by that name. Are we still using the term 
"Dutch 
>> treat" or "going Dutch"? That word itself is offensive 
to some 
>> Nederlanders while others say that's what they are. I don't 
know what 
>> "Indian giver" has been replaced by. 
>> Anyway, that's my $.02 worth! 
>> 
>Point being that the unacceptability of "N****r" in my post...and

in my 
>growing up... 
>was strictly a PERSONAL experience!! This was NOT standard among those 
>of my age demographic...it was just the way *I* was told to behave...!! 
> 
>Sadly, the human race is divided into easily identifiable groups...almost 
>ALL of 
>whom cordially hate one another! 
> 
>...stevenc 
> 
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