[78-L] MIA

Tue Nov 22 12:53:26 PST 2016

Missing In Action. I referred to mid 40s Columbias myself as being particularly 
unlistenable without a huge mid-range cut.

dl

On 11/22/2016 3:50 PM, Inigo Cubillo wrote:
> Royal, what means that "the bass sounds completely MIA"?
>
> I've noticed that some red Columbias from mid forties are impossible to
> play on the re-entrant. The sound is too strong, but unbalanced, and steel
> needles scratch a lot of material from them. They're neither playable with
> bamboo needles: the point goes out in a few turns, and seems to have a
> strong friction with the record surface. They leave behind strange greyish
> stains where the shine of the record is lost, sometimes the entire grooves,
> sometimes only at certain areas, leaving behind kinda oval stains on the
> surface. These I only enjoy on the electronic equipment, but as said, among
> the 35000-38000 range (1939-1947) you find many EQ variations, and
> sometimes you cannot make them sound good with the Re-Equaliser...
>
> Saludos,
> IĂ±igo
>
> El 22/11/2016 9:00 p. m., <78-l-request at klickitat.78online.com> escribiĂ³:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>     1. Re:  Groove spacing - groove width (Inigo Cubillo)
>     2. Re:  Groove spacing - groove width (J. E. Knox)
>     3. Re:  Groove spacing - groove width (David Lennick)
>     4. Re:  Groove spacing - groove width (Royal Pemberton)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 22:02:59 +0100
> From: Inigo Cubillo <ice261263 at gmail.com.invalid>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Groove spacing - groove width
> To: 78-l at klickitat.78online.com
> Message-ID:
>          <CAM0Lj-27w1rk9QWYuKBX1AXU+wZviqy-ov-8JAd3pM4d2t3BDw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Thanks all for the interesting & useful links.
> I usually play 78s on modern equipment thru standard commercial audio amp +
> Esoteric Sound Re-Equaliser. And I've found the Rek-o-kut curves the most
> faithful of all, because they go deeper enough to tell the several curves
> in use by a given maker at a given time. So for instance I try mid-30s
> Victors with either 300 or 500 turnover, and some sound good with 300,
> others with 400 or 500. So recording engineers were not fully regular in
> their EQ choices for recording. But sometimes I play 78s on the HMV 194,
> the second size re-entrant, and there you don't notice as much these
> changes, due to the limited Freq range. As much what you can tell is that
> some records sound a bit more boomy, or that you hear more treble.
> Generally, when treble is stronger, it is in the mid-high range, not too
> agreeable, kinda shrill.
>
> Spanish EMI recordings from early forties had a strange EQ. They seem to
> have a 500 turnover, but the treble boost is very high, kinda 6kHz or maybe
> more... Dunno which kind of microphones or EQ curves they used. This style
> seems to be used from 1945 up to 1949, maybe starting earlier. I have to go
> thru my database for the 0KA/2KA matrixes. The engineer signatures have
> something to do with this. A nice investigation work to be done,
> correlating matrix nos and engineer signatures with a careful listening...
> They used the square symbol, or the slashed square later, for HMV
> recordings, and a circled C for Odeon and Regal brands. Nice work.... Still
> pending. Nevertheless, -KA matrixes prior to this era, maybe 1934 to 1940,
> sound different. The treble boost was pretty low, and the bass too thin
> also. For these, I sometimes use a 700 turnover and a general treble
> reduction, for there's a shrillness very disturbing... I still have to do
> the investigation for the whole Spanish EMI production in the 1934-1950
> period.
>
> Spanish Columbia was a different matter. Starting in 1935, when they cut
> all relationship with EMI, EQ was different, for up to '35 they used d
> European Columbia standard EQ for the (W)K matrixes. When the independent C
> matrix series was started in '35, they seem to use EQ similar to the US
> Columbia (400-500 turnover with -10/-12dB @ 10 kHz roll-off). After '43 and
> the contract with UK Decca, Spanish recordings seem to follow the Decca
> system, and the quality is astonishing. Prior to '43, the quality was also
> pretty good, since the old days. When Regal brand was used in Spain, under
> the double contract with UK-USA Columbia, '23 to '35, Spanish recordings
> were of a very good quality. You notice this specially on the orchestral
> and band recordings. Studio sound is dry for orchestral recordings, but the
> fidelity is good. Check yourselves the Sinf?nica de Madrid recordings from
> 1930 with Arb?s conducting, which were good enough to be published by CBS
> in the US, still present in the 1947 Columbia catalogue (Spanish Music I
> and II, sets M-146 & 331, and De Falla's Three Cornered Hat, set X-38).
> Hear also the Marina opera (set OP-11) also recorded in 1930. Other Spanish
> Columbia recordings in the 1947 US catalogue (Nights in the Gardens of
> Spain) are of much later facture. These maybe arrived to the US Columbia
> catalogue after the 2ww, I don't have data from previous US Columbia
> catalogues.
>
> Saludos,
> I?igo
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 14:15:04 -0800
> From: "J. E. Knox" <rojoknox at metroeast.org.invalid>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Groove spacing - groove width
> To: 78-L List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Message-ID: <CC0573E5-B057-4379-AD75-58EFC1DF9C3B at metroeast.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> Greetings from FixitLand!
>
> Inigo Cubillo wrote:
>
>> ...So for instance I try mid-30s Victors with either 300 or 500 turnover,
> and some sound good with 300,
>> others with 400 or 500. So recording engineers were not fully regular in
> their EQ choices for recording.
>
> The ones with 300 or 400 Hz bass turnovers are most likely of UK (HMV)
> origin. The spectrum analyses on those make it quite clear. When one judges
> solely by ear, one can be fooled. But if it sounds good to you, then it's
> cool.
>
>> ...When the independent C matrix series was started in '35, they seem to
> use EQ similar to the US
>> Columbia (400-500 turnover with -10/-12dB @ 10 kHz roll-off). ...
> I find NO evidence of a treble boost (requiring a roll-off on playback) on
> ANY prewar Columbia commercial 78, or on a number of *postwar* ones as
> well! To make matters worse, from 1939 on, Columbia 78s are dubbed from
> 33-1/3 rpm safeties so are second-generation recordings.
>
> Take care,
>
>
> ?
> Joe
> ?
> ?The only escape from the miseries of life are music and cats...??Albert
> Schweitzer
>
>
>
>
> --
> *Celebrating 30 years of service.*
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 01:49:41 -0500
> From: David Lennick <dlennick at sympatico.ca.invalid>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Groove spacing - groove width
> To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Message-ID: <173a348a-f898-ffa5-0843-fd2fed4c8b86 at sympatico.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> That book containing "all the curves" that was meant to match the OWL
> claimed
> that Columbia didn't change its curve from 1939 to 1955. Horsefeathers, of
> course..every time they needed new 78 masters they did new dubs from the
> 16-inchers, with a different EQ each time. The mid 40s were the worst ones
> with
> that gigantic mid-range hump (which I can only presume was so that its
> records
> would sound lousy on Victor players..problem is they sounded lousy on
> everything else as well).
>
> dl
>
>
> On 11/21/2016 5:15 PM, J. E. Knox wrote:
>> I find NO evidence of a treble boost (requiring a roll-off on playback)
> on ANY prewar Columbia commercial 78, or on a number of *postwar* ones as
> well! To make matters worse, from 1939 on, Columbia 78s are dubbed from
> 33-1/3 rpm safeties so are second-generation recordings.
>> Take care,
>>
>>
>> ?
>> Joe
>> ?
>> ?The only escape from the miseries of life are music and cats...??Albert
> Schweitzer
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 08:15:37 +0000
> From: Royal Pemberton <ampex354 at gmail.com.invalid>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Groove spacing - groove width
> To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Message-ID:
>          <CABxgiEHyOhbhe4MuG8SP=OnYfYbSDecqJuM=zFt9L+TYQmtY0g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> And also, did they filter something on one issue they didn't on another?
> For instance, Columbia 36268 (1941) and 37271 (1947) both have 'Snowfall'
> by Claude Thornhill on one side, from the same master take source, but the
> bass is almost completely MIA on 37271.
>
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 6:49 AM, David Lennick <
> dlennick at sympatico.ca.invalid> wrote:
>
>> That book containing "all the curves" that was meant to match the OWL
>> claimed
>> that Columbia didn't change its curve from 1939 to 1955. Horsefeathers, of
>> course..every time they needed new 78 masters they did new dubs from the
>> 16-inchers, with a different EQ each time. The mid 40s were the worst ones
>> with
>> that gigantic mid-range hump (which I can only presume was so that its
>> records
>> would sound lousy on Victor players..problem is they sounded lousy on
>> everything else as well).
>>
>> dl
>>
>>
>> On 11/21/2016 5:15 PM, J. E. Knox wrote:
>>> I find NO evidence of a treble boost (requiring a roll-off on playback)
>> on ANY prewar Columbia commercial 78, or on a number of *postwar* ones as
>> well! To make matters worse, from 1939 on, Columbia 78s are dubbed from
>> 33-1/3 rpm safeties so are second-generation recordings.
>>> Take care,
>>>
>>>
>>> ?
>>> Joe
>>> ?
>>> ?The only escape from the miseries of life are music and cats...??Albert
>> Schweitzer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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