[78-L] The guy who cleans his 78s with spit.

[David Weiner]

Hey Mike,

This guy sounds like a total lunatic and nothing you say will change his
mind. I wouldn't want to go near any of his spit-soaked records. Sounds to
me like it's a way to mark his territory, like the alpha wolf in the pack,
if you know what I mean!

Dave Weiner

On 6/23/14, 4:03 AM, "Michael Biel" <mbiel at mbiel.com.invalid> wrote:

>
>Over the years we have had lots of long and heated discussions of how to
>clean your records.  It was the most difficult subject we have.  As I
>have mentioned, a lot of record collecting discussion has moved over to
>Facebook, and a mixture of old hands and newbies have blended uneasily.
>Well, the cleaning discussion finally hit, and hit hard.  Two threads on
>"78 rpm records & cylinders fan group" opened up at the same time.  Once
>concerned STEAM CLEANING 78s!!!!  The other concerned mold and mold
>spores on acetates.  We explained that the steam would be great if you
>wanted to make a vase out of your record, and that there was no mold or
>mold spores on the lacquer disc, it was Palmetic acid.  Then came the
>suggestions to use WD40 to clean records.  Ammonia to clean 78s.  But
>finally, when we thought we had heard every possible method came word
>from a guy who feels that the Doctor's Miracle Record Cleaner is too
>hard on records but that he uses SPIT to clean his.  A thousand records
>a month he cleans with spit.  Then he rinses them with distilled water.
>Then after they are dry he plays them backwards and forward and
>backwards and forwards to clean out all the debris in the grooves.
>
>Here is his part of the discussion with my answers and a few other
>comments.
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>Greg Butler--- saliva is excellent
>
>Greg Butler--- yes a very worn clean cloth and a bit of spit rub in the
>direction 
>of the grooves - never be tempted to use anything that includes solvents
>
>and I include "disc doctor"!
>
>Greg Butler--- clean off with distilled water and dry again with another
>old worn clean dry cloth
>
>Greg Butler--- amazingly shellac is very tough so some people us a
>scrubbing brush - the grey powder at the bottom of grooves is usually
>not shellac but steel needle residue that has been worn down by the
>record...
>
>Michael Biel--- Another reason why NOT to continue to play records with
>acoustical players and steel needles. You can't help what was done 70
>years ago but you can stop now. Plus, the Brits loved to use fibre and
>thorns which created a nice juicy gunk in the grooves. There are now
>some fully scientific studies being made on all sorts of cleaning
>methods, and if I had brought these two threads of comments to the
>recent ARSC conference where this was discussed, they would still be
>laughing.
>
>Doug Benson--- HI Greg Butler! Do you really spit on your records? Do
>you have any idea what all is present in human saliva?? And while I'm
>asking questions, have you ever actually tried Disc Doctor?
>
>[He never did answer that question -- his only cleaning fluid is spit
>with a water rinse]
>
>Greg Butler---  after cleaning, it is good to run the discs backwards
>and forwards and backwards and forwards a couple of times using a
>sacrificial stylus to clear remaining debris out of the grooves - we can
>do this quite easily with the numark decks we use for our radio shows.
>
>Michael Biel--- If the record is properly cleaned (e.g. not using spit),
>shoveling remaining debris out of the groove is unnecessary because the
>cleaning got all the debris. That there is debris shows the record was
>improperly cleaned.
>
>Greg Butler--- saliva is very mild it has natural enzymes designed to
>loosen debris from your teeth and is certainly less aggresive than any
>sort of solvent - it does of course need to be washed off afterwards
>with clean water - but very often - it is the only form of cleaner
>available! Mechanical removal is the most effective - but again great
>care is required and I always simply recommend a lint free cleaning
>cloth and/or fine brush - the record should be dry before playing
>backwards and forwards - but it certainly does help. The best method of
>dirt removal is highly dependent upon what the dirt actually is - and
>sometime you may have no choice to use something more aggresive - but as
>Michael Biel and others point out - as much care as possible is required
>to avoid anything that will actually damage the shellac! Not every case
>is the same - but without knowing the actual chemical makeup of the
>contaminant caution is required.
>
>
>Michael Biel--- Saliva is a dreadfully bad and inefficient cleaner of
>eyeglasses. If you can't even get your glasses clean with spit, it will
>be far worse cleaning records. Cleaning cloths are useless getting dirt
>out of grooves. ONLY a brush will do it. Even back in the 1920s it was
>recommended to use a brush. Every cleaning method uses a brush to get
>into the groove. Properly designed brushes are sized and shaped to fit
>the groove. If the record is cleaned properly there will be no residue
>to be removed by the needle. That you have much shows that you are not
>cleaning correctly.
>
>
>Greg Butler--- There would be something very wrong if you had the sort
>of dirt I often find on 78s on your eyeglasses! I think you are starting
>to be a bit ridiculous Michael I buy over 1000 records every month and
>some of them need more than a brush I can assure you!
>
>Michael Biel--- If saliva cannot get the small amount of dirt off of
>eyeglasses, why in the world do you think that you can get worse dirt
>off of the records????? Eyeglasses are the best case scenario -- the
>EASIEST stuff to clean off and saliva can't do it properly. And you
>think that saliva can clean the dirt off of your admittedly much dirtier
>records????? Are you sober???? Do you realize that you are suggesting
>the use of saliva to clean records???
>
>Greg Butler--- now you are just sounding stupid - have you actualy ever
>cleaned a really dirty 78? I can assure you saliva does work and works
>without damaging the record
>
>Michael Biel--- For over 60 years I have cleaned records using properly
>designed cleaning materials and surfactants like Disc Doctor and special
>78 formulas, brushes designed to get into the grooves, and several
>different machines. And I never had to resort to clearing out debris by
>running a record back and forth and back and forth like you do because
>your spit and a cloth are not really cleaning the records. You admit
>that you use nothing but spit on initial cleaning and then have to rinse
>the record with distilled water. It is not working. If you still have
>stuff in the grooves after cleaning it is not working.
>
>Greg Butler--- You sound a bit obsessive Michael with obviously lots of
>time on your hands - when you are dealing with as many records as I do a
>deep clean valet using processes that might damage the records is not a
>realistic option. I suppose it just depends upon how OCD you are.
>
>Michael Biel--- SPIT? How much saliva do you actually produce if you
>clean a thousand records a month with spit?
>
>Greg Butler--- I seee it is the idea of using spit that revolts you Mr
>Monk
>
>Michael Biel--- It doesn't revolt me, it is STUPID.
>
>Mark Cederquist--- Everyone's got their own particular method of
>cleaning 78's.
>
>Michael Biel--- Everybody thought you were joking when you mentioned it,
>just like the joke about using chicken soup. Or 40 grit sandpaper. But
>it is becoming a sad fact that you are serious about this, and that this
>is going to be how you are known worldwide -- the guy who cleans his
>records with saliva.
>
>Greg Butler--- You do sound a bit like a cracked record Michael
>obsessing about this subject as if your way is the only way! My
>philosophy is if you can avoid any sort of aggresive solvent on these
>precious records you should - and a natural enzymatic cleaner works for
>me no matter how much you find it unpleasant.
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>So, my question to the ARSC Technical Committee and to the Library of
>Congress group which gave a presentation on cleaning lacquer discs, is
>SPIT a good cleaning fluid for shellac 78s???
>
>Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com
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