[78-L] Flexo Record questions

DAVID BURNHAM burnhamd at rogers.com
Sat Mar 15 21:27:54 PDT 2014 

Whatever!  As I said I was talking about one specific stylus which has had lots of use for over 90 years and, according to the very experienced Bob Nix, shows no wear whatsoever, (he said it looked like new).  I don't know what kind of microscope he uses.  But the general wisdom seems to be that with normal use, an Edison stylus will not suffer normal wear, compared to the wear on stylii used for lateral cut discs.  I can't imagine what would cause a flattened tip under normal use, unless the soundbox were to be dragged across the record surface, little ridges, (which I picture as little indents on the side of the stylus), would indicate a stylus which is larger than the groove so that the shoulders of the groove are cutting into the sides.  I would like to know what you mean by "and worse".

db



On Saturday, March 15, 2014 10:13:22 PM, Ron L'Herault <lherault at verizon.net> wrote:
 
The difference between wear and damage can be seen in empirical tests.  If
>you hear an echo from a Diamond disc, there is a problem with the stylus.
>If you put that stylus on the run out area of a spinning record and it
>leaves a line, the stylus is damaged.  If it does not leave a line then the
>stylus is very worn.  Normal wear results in neither the line nor the echo.
>
>Ron L
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
>[mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of DAVID BURNHAM
>Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 4:38 PM
>To: 78-L Mail List
>Subject: Re: [78-L] Flexo Record questions
>
>No doubt, but are we talking about wear or damage?  I'm only talking about
>one specific stylus, which is 97 years old, was and still is played
>regularly, (this player didn't just sit and collect dust, I bought it from
>the original owners whom I knew quite well), so I would say it has
>experienced normal wear during its lifetime so far.
>
>db
>
>
>
>On Saturday, March 15, 2014 4:26:09 PM, DAVID BURNHAM <burnhamd at rogers.com>
>wrote:
>
>I think the compliance of the reproducer should be uniform throughout the
>side of the record, but your comment about the position of the reroducer on
>the surface of the disc is right on - what is known as inner groove
>distortion, caused by the relatively slow speed of the disc surface under
>the stylus compared to the beginning of the record.  Another factor to
>consider is the lack of modulation in the run-off spiral.  The stresses on
>the playback stylus from musical areas of the record which cause the wear on
>the stylus are completely absent in the run-off groove, so like the groove
>on an Edison vertical cut record the geometry of the run-off groove never
>varies.  I have a 1917 Edison phonograph, (Edison called his disc players
>"phonographs", not gramophones), and it still has its original playback
>stylus and I had it checked recently by Bob Nix, the phonograph Doctor, and
>it's still in like new condition.
>>
>>db
>>
>>
>>
>>On Saturday, March 15, 2014 2:17:12 PM, Ron L'Herault
><lherault at verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>I think that has more to do with a lack of compliance of the reproducer
>>>coupled with its position on the record but that is just a gut feeling. 
>>>
>>>Ron L
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
>>>[mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of Dave Burnham
>>>Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 1:24 PM
>>>To: 78-L Mail List
>>>Subject: Re: [78-L] Flexo Record questions
>>>
>>>I find the opposite to be the case far more often - where the end of 
>>>the record, (usually the loudest part of the record), is torn and damaged.
>>>
>>>db
>>>
>>>Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Mar 15, 2014, at 1:19 PM, "Ron L'Herault" <lherault at verizon.net>
>wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, but by then the needle has been shaped to the groove and should 
>>>> still be in good "shape", assuming you are not re-using a needle 
>>>> more than
>>>once.
>>>> Even needles that have been reused do minmal damage by the end of 
>>>> the record.  Think of how many records you've seen with graing, 
>>>> nasty sounding initial grooves that don't sound too bad by the end.
>>>> 
>>>> Ron L
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
>>>> [mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of Dave 
>>>> Burnham
>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 12:41 PM
>>>> To: 78-L Mail List
>>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Flexo Record questions
>>>> 
>>>> That seems strange!  Surely the runout groove is usually played 
>>>> after a needle has played the record.
>>>> 
>>>> db
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 15, 2014, at 11:45 AM, "Ron L'Herault" 
>>>>>> <lherault at verizon.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Seems to me Victor Tungstone needles recommended the runout as 
>>>>> well. That way you are dealing with grooves that have not been 
>>>>> damaged as much by worn needles and you have little  danger of 
>>>>> getting into the good part of the disk while trying to prepare the
>needle.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ron L
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
>>>>> [mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of 
>>>>> neechevoneeznayou at gmail.com
>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 11:15 PM
>>>>> To: 78-L Mail List
>>>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Flexo Record questions
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yes, that much I know but did not state clearly in the post. What I 
>>>>> hadn't seen was instructions to wear the thing in properly at the 
>>>>> end of the record before playing. Why not at the beginning? Seems 
>>>>> like an inconvenience. Would the inside grooves be any different? 
>>>>> (Other than slower surface speed.) Or does this refer to a center start
>record?
>>>>> (which Flexo did make, I have learned)
>>>>> 
>>>>> So I assume Flexos were produced in pretty much the same way as any 
>>>>> other record, just the record material is different. Maybe a little 
>>>>> quicker to cool in the press...
>>>>> 
>>>>> js
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 3/14/2014 9:43 PM, Ron L'Herault wrote:
>>>>>> Probably to wear it to the right shape/"deburr" it.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ron L
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
>>>>>> [mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of 
>>>>>> neechevoneeznayou at gmail.com
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 6:13 PM
>>>>>> To: 78-L Mail List
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Flexo Record questions
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Come to think, I did see a 16" Flexo at Kurt's once upon a time. I 
>>>>>> don't remember what it contained. I do recall that it seemed 
>>>>>> rather
>>>>> curled.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The label and the little insert that I discovered after I posted 
>>>>>> do say that a new steel needle is OK, but not one that has been 
>>>>>> used previously on a shellac record. It also suggests letting it 
>>>>>> ride thru the quiet inner grooves just a little bit before playing 
>>>>>> the record (outside start). Never saw this before.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> joe salerno
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 3/14/2014 3:14 PM, David Lennick wrote:
>>>>>>> They did indeed do vanity records, radio transcriptions (imagine 
>>>>>>> a 16-incher..I've transferred one), promos, giveaways, and I 
>>>>>>> don't think the steel needle did that much damage. Warped edges 
>>>>>>> are more of a
>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>> http://78rpmrecord.com/flexo.htm
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> dl
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 3/14/2014 4:08 PM, neechevoneeznayou at gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> Just acquired my first Flexo Record. This is a 10" record 
>>>>>>>> "Recorded and Produced by UNITY SCHOOL OF CHRISTIANITY (Record
>>>>>>>> Dept.) 917 Tracy, Kansas City, Mo.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Original sleeve too, although it is torn. "Play With New Steel
>Needle"
>>>>>>>> it says, and "Keep Record Lying Flat"
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 406-A is A MESSAGE OF JOY In My Neighbor's Garden (Nevin) Piano 
>>>>>>>> Interpretation by Mrs. Arthur Comstock. 406-B, by the same 
>>>>>>>> performer, is A MESSAGE OF PEACE Adagio from Sonata Pathetique
>>>>>>>> (Beethoven)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I haven't played it yet.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Is this a vanity record? Why produce a vanity record as a Flexo 
>>>>>>>> instead of the usual shellac? I assume this is not breakable, 
>>>>>>>> and has a  quieter surface. Other advantages?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Would a steel needle not wear out such a record? It certainly is 
>>>>>>>> soft, and  apparently warpable, hence the admonition to keep it 
>>>>>>>> lying flat. It also is translucent, reminds me of a lacquer, 
>>>>>>>> except there is no
>>>>>> base.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I have a hard time imagining that such a record would survive 
>>>>>>>> long under a steel needle.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Joe Salerno
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>>
>>>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Joe Salerno
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Joe Salerno
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> 
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