[78-L] Debussy's cathedral (was ^more weird stuff using records)

[Mike Harkin]

The cathedral of Mexico City has sunk several feet over the last five or so
centuries -- being built on soft subsoil, and with a sinking water table due
to the huge population.   IIRC, when it was built, you went UP steps to enter
but you now go DOWN....  La cathédrale engloutante?

Mike in Plovdiv




________________________________
 From: David Lennick <dlennick at sympatico.ca>
To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2014 2:10 AM
Subject: Re: [78-L] Debussy's cathedral (was ^more weird stuff using records)
 

Makes more sense. I've seen both "Engulfed" and "Sunken" in translated titles.

dl


On 2/17/2014 7:05 PM, Kristjan Saag wrote:
> I think the clue here is that cathedrals, unlike ships, usually don't
> sink. If they disappear they may be submerged (in water) or engulfed. So
> the correct English translation would have been "The submerged (or
> engulfed) cathedral".
> Additionally, "s'engloutir", in French, is the verb used for cities,
> treasures and other non-maritime things that are engulfed, but not
> ships. A sunken ship in French is a "bateau coulé". And, as with
> "engulf" in English, "s'engloutir" doesn't necessarily refer to water,
> things can be "engloutie" in sand, clay, whatever.
> In reference to the Breton myth the word "submerged" would have been the
> ideal English translation. But "sunken"/ "versunken" (the official
> German translation)/ "sjunkna" (the Swedish) is more poetical. And
> definitely better than the Estonian "uppunud" (drowned). In Estonian
> there is a specific expression for vessels that sink: one speaks of
> vessels that "hit the bottom (of the sea)". But it would be awkward to
> use if for cathedrals, so in Debussy's case the generic term for sunken
> people and ships are used for the cathedral in Estonian...
> Kristjan
>
>
> On 2014-02-17 21:38, Ron Roscoe wrote:
>> Thanks. Very interesting! Does that mean that the French don't have a word for sunken?
>> RonR
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Feb 17, 2014, at 3:30 PM, "David Lennick"<dlennick at sympatico.ca>  wrote:
>>>
>>> No, the English title is "The Sunken Cathedral".
>>>
>>> "This piece is based on an ancient Breton myth in which a cathedral, submerged
>>> underwater off the coast of the Island of Ys, rises up from the sea on clear
>>> mornings when the water is transparent. Sounds can be heard of priests
>>> chanting, bells chiming, and the organ playing, from across the sea. [2]
>>> Accordingly, Debussy uses certain harmonies to allude to the plot of the
>>> legend, in the style of musical symbolism." (Wiki)
>>>
>>> dl
>>>
>>>> On 2/17/2014 3:25 PM, Ron Roscoe wrote:
>>>> Doesn't the Engulfed Cathedral by Debussy referred to fire, not water?
>>>> RonR
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 17, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "David Lennick"<dlennick at sympatico.ca>   wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Held out as long as I could, but here goes..
>>>>>
>>>>> HANDEL: WATER MUSIC
>>>>> DEBUSSY: LA CATHEDRALE ENGLOUTIE, REFLETS DANS L'EAU; POISSONS D'OR; LA MER
>>>>> RAVEL: ONDINE
>>>>> WILDER: NEUROTIC GOLDFISH
>>>>> COATES: BY THE SLEEPY LAGOON
>>>>> WILLIAMS: THEME FROM "JAWS"
>>>>> SPIKE JONES: DRIP DRIP DRIP (WATER LOU aka SLOPPY LAGOON)
>>>>>
>>>>> u.s.w.
>>>>>
>>>>> dl
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/17/2014 2:12 PM, Julian Vein wrote:
>>>>>>> On 17/02/14 17:28, Rodger Holtin wrote:
>>>>>>> My son sent this to me via facebook.
>>>>>>> http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2014/02/submerged-turntable-by-evan-holm/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there no end to the silliness?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rodger
>>>>>> ================
>>>>>> Not so silly, there are parts of the UK under water at the moment, and
>>>>>> without electricity. I'm sure they could use one to cheer themselves up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         Julian Vein
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