[78-L] Debussy's cathedral (was ^more weird stuff using records)

[Kristjan Saag]

I think the clue here is that cathedrals, unlike ships, usually don't 
sink. If they disappear they may be submerged (in water) or engulfed. So 
the correct English translation would have been "The submerged (or 
engulfed) cathedral".
Additionally, "s'engloutir", in French, is the verb used for cities, 
treasures and other non-maritime things that are engulfed, but not 
ships. A sunken ship in French is a "bateau coulé". And, as with 
"engulf" in English, "s'engloutir" doesn't necessarily refer to water, 
things can be "engloutie" in sand, clay, whatever.
In reference to the Breton myth the word "submerged" would have been the 
ideal English translation. But "sunken"/ "versunken" (the official 
German translation)/ "sjunkna" (the Swedish) is more poetical. And 
definitely better than the Estonian "uppunud" (drowned). In Estonian 
there is a specific expression for vessels that sink: one speaks of 
vessels that "hit the bottom (of the sea)". But it would be awkward to 
use if for cathedrals, so in Debussy's case the generic term for sunken 
people and ships are used for the cathedral in Estonian...
Kristjan


On 2014-02-17 21:38, Ron Roscoe wrote:
> Thanks. Very interesting! Does that mean that the French don't have a word for sunken?
> RonR
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Feb 17, 2014, at 3:30 PM, "David Lennick" <dlennick at sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>> No, the English title is "The Sunken Cathedral".
>>
>> "This piece is based on an ancient Breton myth in which a cathedral, submerged
>> underwater off the coast of the Island of Ys, rises up from the sea on clear
>> mornings when the water is transparent. Sounds can be heard of priests
>> chanting, bells chiming, and the organ playing, from across the sea. [2]
>> Accordingly, Debussy uses certain harmonies to allude to the plot of the
>> legend, in the style of musical symbolism." (Wiki)
>>
>> dl
>>
>>> On 2/17/2014 3:25 PM, Ron Roscoe wrote:
>>> Doesn't the Engulfed Cathedral by Debussy referred to fire, not water?
>>> RonR
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Feb 17, 2014, at 2:27 PM, "David Lennick"<dlennick at sympatico.ca>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Held out as long as I could, but here goes..
>>>>
>>>> HANDEL: WATER MUSIC
>>>> DEBUSSY: LA CATHEDRALE ENGLOUTIE, REFLETS DANS L'EAU; POISSONS D'OR; LA MER
>>>> RAVEL: ONDINE
>>>> WILDER: NEUROTIC GOLDFISH
>>>> COATES: BY THE SLEEPY LAGOON
>>>> WILLIAMS: THEME FROM "JAWS"
>>>> SPIKE JONES: DRIP DRIP DRIP (WATER LOU aka SLOPPY LAGOON)
>>>>
>>>> u.s.w.
>>>>
>>>> dl
>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/17/2014 2:12 PM, Julian Vein wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/02/14 17:28, Rodger Holtin wrote:
>>>>>> My son sent this to me via facebook.
>>>>>> http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2014/02/submerged-turntable-by-evan-holm/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there no end to the silliness?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rodger
>>>>> ================
>>>>> Not so silly, there are parts of the UK under water at the moment, and
>>>>> without electricity. I'm sure they could use one to cheer themselves up.
>>>>>
>>>>>        Julian Vein
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