[78-L] Help ? dating 1918-19 Paramounts

[Doug Caldwell]

Malcolm - thanks for your informative input. I am working on Wiedoeft's biography, which includes his discography. And either task, as it's turning out, could be a life-long endeavor. I probably have enough to present his Paramounts in broad strokes, with lots of disclaimers. It's just maddening to have to leave it so vague - I'm always tempted to try to triangulate my way to a more specific "circa."

Luckily there are a few  "known" bits a data that help with that. For example, Wiedoeft could not have been in NY before Dec 14, 1918. So, with Pm 30088 ( mx 402-1) "Hindustan" announced in TMW Jan 15, 1919, Wiedoeft's initial Pm sessions (mxes 378, 379 & 380) would appear to have taken place in the last 2 weeks of Dec. 

Mx 380, (Pm 50026 "Saxophobia")however, gives me a slight problem. Aurally, and stylistically, it just seems like a later version than Dec 1918. In that regard, your info about "takes" is interesting. So far, I only know of "Saxophobia" existing as "take 2" - which, as you indicate, could be from a later session. 

It seems odd, though, that an artist would only take one whack at a song, then go back later and take one more whack. Could it be that the "take" numbers on these Paramounts, actually indicate individual  "sessions" (of perhaps multiple takes) ?  

I don't know about Pm 50026, but I have seen Pm 50027 advertised as a "December Release" in 1919. Which would lead one to think that these masters (378, 379, 380)  date closer to summer/fall 1919. It would seem odd - but not unprecedented, I guess - for Paramount to have held them back for a full year. 

Wiedoeft vacated NY no later than Sept 13, 1919, not to return until mid Dec. So his window for recording was Dec, 14, 1918 to Sept. 14, 1919.  

sorry to ramble on -- thanks again - Doug Caldwell 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Malcolm Rockwell 
  To: 78-L Mail List 
  Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2013 1:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [78-L] Help ? dating 1918-19 Paramounts


  On 4/12/2013 4:54 PM, dc wrote:
  > The lack of Paramount particulars has me in a quandry  -- anyone with any solid info, leads, or suggestions on this?
  >
  Nope. My sources are all vague on these. Read on...
  >
  > Paramount 30088,  "Hindustan" by Master Saxophone Sextet is mx 402. That recording (or at least that song, by that group)  is listed in the Jan. 15, 1919 issue of  Talking Machine World , in their "Advance Record Bulletin" -  presumably indicating that the company intended to issue that side soon. I am assuming the record would have already been master before that announcement - at least a couple of weeks before.
  >
  >   
  Yes, but beware trying to second guess recording dates!  Rust tried it 
  for unconfirmed dates in the Gennett catalogue and has been proven to be 
  incorrect by later Starr ledger sheets and/or recording cards that 
  surfaced well after he published. The New York dates are generally off 
  by from 2 days to a couple of weeks depending on how long it took the 
  masters to ship from New York and arrive in Richmond, Indiana, where 
  they were pressed.
  It is possible the same scenario played out with Paramount recordings 
  cut in New York.
  I will second guess a recording date but I always indicate that that is 
  what I have done in print. I'll even third guess a release date if I 
  cannot access any solid recording or (secondary source such as TMW or 
  other trades) release dates, and I will indicate that, as well.
  >
  > Rudy Wiedoeft made three Paramounts that were issued in the 50000 series, all of which have matix numbers earlier than "Hindustan" (378, 379, and 380) ("Llewellyn Waltz," "Saxophobia" both 50026, and "Valse Erica" 50027).
  >
  >   
  >
  > Question: Would it be incorrect to estimate that Wiedoeft's sessions for these matrices took place earlier than the "Hindustan" (mx 402) session?
  >
  >
  >
  Yes, if the matrix numbers were issued in a linear fashion - I believe 
  Paramount matrices were - and you're dealing with take -1 only. Many 
  times later takes were recorded out of sequence (at a later date and not 
  at the same session) for one reason or another. My primary source gives 
  no recording or issue date for mxes 378, 379 & 380.

  Malcolm
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