[78-L] The Waldorf-Astoria Orchestra Mystery

[Philip Carli]

Players didn't specialize in the 1910s-20s as much as they do to-day.  I'm pretty sure that Knecht's players doubled between groups as needed, and were probably pretty versatile (and played in other NY groups as well when they had time).   What you did _in_ specific venues was at the discretion of the leader, the occasion, and the type of establishment.  The categorization of playing styles and propriety for specific jobs is a post-WW2 phenomenon.

On a separate but related note, look at the categorization and makeup of the groups that recorded as "Sousa's Band".  It's a similar situation.  PC

 ________________________________________
From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com [78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] on behalf of David Lewis [uncledavelewis at hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 11:44 AM
To: 78-l
Subject: [78-L] The Waldorf-Astoria Orchestra Mystery

It probably seems like I pick up things and put them down with profligacy, but in fact I thread the needle time and time
only find more string. Anyway....

This is something just want to put past you guys to see who thinks it has merit and who thinks I'm insane. When I did my
research project 13 years ago on Cincinnati bandleader Harry Spindler I discovered that Spindler had recorded for Gennett,
but rejected those recordings and replaced them with records made in New York by Sam Lanin. He also had Lanin "ghost" record
for him on Cameo, without even recording himself. Recordings made later in Tokyo of Spindler's actual band reveal that they
were a "hot" group that played in a style arcane for 1925. This made me wonder how widespread the practice was of getting a
stand-in band to record under your name, making it so that you had records for promotional purposes that sounded good, but
weren't actually you.

There was also the practice of hiring bands in through an agency and having them take the name of the establishment where they
were playing, which may have had some relation to this topic.

The Waldorf-Astoria Orchestra, headed by Joseph M. Knecht through 1925, was a 27-piece orchestra that played light classical
music for dinner. They may not have been the same group that constituted the Waldorf-Astoria Dance Orchestra, which was a
nine-to-eleven piece band that played ragtime and popular songs. More than a 150 records were made that were credited to the
Waldorf-Astoria Orchestra, or Dance Orchestra, between 1918-24 with many credited to Joseph M. Knecht as leader, and these
appeared on all kinds of labels: Victor, Columbia, Edison, Grey Gull, Gennett etc.

First of all, I'm not sure that any of them were made by the 27-piece Waldorf-Astoria Orchestra actually led by Knecht. And the
ones credited to him are actually a number of different bands that may recognizable as other groups; I have encountered at least
three. You may say, "well, membership and style in ANY band tends to change over time," but hear me out. The main group that
recorded as the Waldorf-Astoria for Victor and Columbia is distinctive because they use a bass clarinet as the principal bass
instrument.

Arabian Nights - Victor 11-29-1918
http://victor.library.ucsb.edu/index.php/matrix/detail/700007458/B-22328-Arabian_nights

This appears to be the same group that recorded as the Waldorf-Astoria for Columbia

The Vamp - Columbia 6-2-1919
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51Iop5LZqsI

AND as Earl Fuller's Orchestra for Victor

While the Incense is Burning Victor 11-19-1917
https://www.box.com/s/n0bfybw6js23mltvv3sm

The Fuller "Orchestra" is shorthand for "Earl Fuller's Celebrated Society Orchestra." Advertising from 1917 shows them as an
11-piece orchestra. It was one of four groups that Fuller was running under his name at that time.

But wait, there's more! This Waldorf-Astoria Orchestra on Grey Gull is not the same one, and sounds to me like Sam Lanin:

The Shiek - Grey Gull 10-1921
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml7g8gikVr0

And here's an Edison with an entirely different band; this sounds like one of Harry Reser's groups:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foKfPJbz6VI

I suspect that the actual Waldorf-Astoria Orchestra was just too busy to record, but that Knecht recognized the publicity value
of such records as they drew in dancers. So he'd hire in other bands to make their records. Knecht is also credited as the leader
of the Goodrich-Silvertown Cord Orchestra which recorded in the later 1920s and were apparently a "real" group that performed on
early radio. Knecht died in 1931.

Thoughts? Discuss?

Uncle Dave Lewis
uncledavelewis at hotmail.com
_______________________________________________
78-L mailing list
78-L at klickitat.78online.com
http://klickitat.78online.com/mailman/listinfo/78-l

________________________________

This email message and any attachments may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are prohibited from using the information in any way, including but not limited to disclosure of, copying, forwarding or acting in reliance on the contents. If you have received this email by error, please immediately notify me by return email and delete it from your email system. Thank you.