[78-L] Fake stereo

Fri Mar 1 15:33:42 PST 2013

At the 30th Street studio the echo chamber was a basement room.    

At 799th, it was the back stairwell.   I think Frank Laico has talked about how they could only use the stairwell echo at night, to avoid outside sounds coming in.

________________________________
 From: David Lennick <dlennick at sympatico.ca>
To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com> 
Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: [78-L] Fake stereo

Then there were the Columbia albums (mono, late 40s-early 50s) where their echo 
chamber was somewhere in the depths and picked up rumble, traffic, subways, and 
the occasional barking dog.

dl

On 3/1/2013 5:36 PM, Ryan Wolfe wrote:
> I have a stereo Sinatra album where they somehow left one channel completely 'dry' and the other  'wet' as if they forgot to hit the echo return from the underground chamber  on one channel only during mixing from the three track.
>
> The made great hi-fi records at Capitol in the 50's, but strange little anomalies do crop up.
>
> ________________________________
>   From: David Lennick<dlennick at sympatico.ca>
> To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Fake stereo
>
> Capitol had enough problems with real stereo as well. Most of one side of Peggy
> Lee's "Christmas Carousel" was out of phase on some pressings, and one track on
> the "Sail Away" cast album went out of phase midway.
>
> dl
>
> On 3/1/2013 5:19 PM, Ryan Wolfe wrote:
>> That's also  what I've the understood Duophonic  principle to be.
>>
>> Although not all Capitol Duophonic seemed to be created the same.    Sometimes there's is a very pronounced delay, and when you fold it you get the 'pingy' effect I described.    Sometimes it just sounds more phasey.
>>
>> I say this not as someone who's spent a lot mucking about with Duophonic records, rather, just going by the ones to pass by me over the years.       I never buy them anymore, no matter how cheap.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>     From: Royal Pemberton<ampex354 at gmail.com>
>> To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>> Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 1:04 PM
>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Fake stereo
>>
>> Capitol's Duophonic had at least one extra delay going on between the left
>> and right channels, not simply delaying the right channel by 32-33
>> milliseconds and inverting polarity and adding EQ.  I've experimented with
>> trying to re-synchronise the two channels of a Duophonic track to see if
>> that results in EQ split fake stereo but no matter what there is that
>> delay-derived artifact in there one place or another.  The worst example I
>> can think of where they brought an extra one into, and out of a Duophonic
>> version is 'Tampico' from the STAN KENTON'S GREATEST HITS LP where a
>> centred one just ahead of the left (and then the right) channels appears
>> only during the passages where June Christy is singing.
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Cary Ginell<soundthink at live.com>   wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Then were releases whose catalog numbers implied that they were fake
>>> stereo, only to reveal TRUE stereo when it was played.
>>> I believe I recall some things on RCA Camden that were like this.
>>> Cary Ginell
>>>
>>>> Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 15:26:03 -0500
>>>> From: dlennick at sympatico.ca
>>>> To: 78-l at klickitat.78online.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Fake stereo
>>>>
>>>> Then there were reissues, in mono, which were taken by mixing down fake
>>> stereo
>>>> masters. Think it didn't happen? RCA did this with an Eddie Fisher
>>> compilation
>>>> and one or two cast albums.
>>>>
>>>> Fake stereo issues that actually sounded good, to me:
>>>>
>>>> QUIET VILLAGE..Les Baxter
>>>> BEST OF HUGO WINTERHALTER
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't swear that the entire lp was good in either case, but for the
>>> few
>>>> cuts we used on air, they sounded fine.
>>>>
>>>> dl
>>>>
>>>> On 3/1/2013 3:16 PM, Michael Biel wrote:
>>>>> Let me explain something about echo/reverb vs. tone controls and comb
>>>>> filtering.  There is a slight amount of phase shifting whenever tone
>>>>> controls are used.  ANY tone control.  In electronic terms this phase
>>>>> shift is a slight delay measured in microseconds.  (This includes
>>>>> inherent equalization like RIAA, and is why RIAA playback
>>>>> re-equalization must be done in the analog domain, NOT in the digital
>>>>> domain.  We had a tutorial about this at ARSC a couple of years ago.
>>>>> You cannot feed a flat LP audio into your computer and expect any but
>>>>> the very expensive programs to put in the RIAA equalization.)  It is
>>>>> also why the Vinylphools do not have variable tone controls in their
>>>>> systems.  Changing the tone can affect the "soundstage" of 2 or 3-mic
>>>>> stereo like Mercury Living Presence, Decca/London blue-backs, or RCA
>>>>> Living Stereo which depends on phase relationships.  Overdub or
>>>>> multitrack stereo are not affected as much, but these guys hate that
>>>>> stuff anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So, when comb filtering is done, unless it is done so the left and
>>> right
>>>>> channel filters match exactly in a mirror image to each other, you
>>>>> cannot re-combine the two channels without having some phase
>>>>> cancellation.  That would be the "pingy" effect you mention, I think.
>>>>> I've never heard that word used except in ping-pong which is wide
>>> motion
>>>>> between channels.
>>>>>
>>>>> The phase-delay of comb filtering is NOT the same as echo or reverb.
>>>>> This is delaying the sound to the point that you can hear the delay.
>>>>> Tone controls do not delay the sound that much.  Echo is where the
>>>>> distinct delays are discretely heard, like in tape-delay.  Reverb is
>>>>> where the repetition delays are so dense that they are not discretely
>>>>> heard.  Much of what RCA Victor used on pop records was echo, hence the
>>>>> Harry Belefonte Quartette.  They also tended to roll off the bass on
>>> the
>>>>> left and roll it up on the right along with a roll-off of the highs.
>>>>> Capitol Dupohonic tended to do more comb filtering and reverb.  I
>>>>> wouldn't be surprised if they might sometimes have used the underground
>>>>> natural chambers by the Capitol Tower, but otherwise reverb was usually
>>>>> done with the Neumann Plate or the AKG Springs
>>>>>
>>>>> Echo or reverb cannot be removed.  Rolling off can usually be undone,
>>>>> and comb filtering can sometimes be recombined IF done with that in
>>>>> mind.  Sometimes the engineers DID check the compatibility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike BIel  mbiel at mbiel.com
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Fake stereo
>>>>> From: Ryan Wolfe<nextset4 at yahoo.com>
>>>>> Date: Fri, March 01, 2013 2:38 pm
>>>>> To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess that figures, that Capitol would put their classical stuff
>>>>> through Duophonic.  Yuck.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's hard to even reconvert Duophonic back to true mono...you can't
>>> fold
>>>>> it down , the pingy airplane hangar effect remains.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>       From: Royal Pemberton<ampex354 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 10:41 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Fake stereo
>>>>>
>>>>> AFAIK there are some classical albums which did use that L/R delay, and
>>>>> they are on Capitol (whether on Capitol or Angel I can't say as what I
>>>>> heard was from an excerpt on the sampler/promo that first hawked
>>>>> Duophonic).
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Ryan Wolfe<nextset4 at yahoo.com>    wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Somewhere, I read an account by guy charged with what were the first
>>> fake
>>>>>> stereo releases for RCA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He had Toscanini stuff to to work with and described his laborious and
>>>>>> time consuming attempts
>>>>>> manipulating a comb filter to try to take the mono sources and put
>>> them
>>>>>> into a convincing and somewhat varied stereo presentation.
>>>>>> Then RCA wanted him to do that with all their stuff, which was going
>>> to be
>>>>>> impractical, so he / they opted for something easier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've never heard a classical album that took a mono source and put it
>>> on
>>>>>>       a true L / R delay, just the ones that use the bass in one channel
>>>      /
>>>>>> treble in the other approach.  Including things like Toscanini.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>       From: Ted Kneebone<tkneebone1 at abe.midco.net>
>>>>>> To: 78-l<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 8:06 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [78-L] Fake stereo
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have at least one LP of Glenn Miller done in
>>>>>> what is called "enhanced" stereo, or something
>>>>>> like that.  One channel is delayed slightly.  The
>>>>>> effect is supposed to sound like an echo.  It
>>>>>> really ruins what was perfectly good mono sound --
>>>>>> and surely is not stereo.
>>>>>>         When i play this disc, I listen to only one
>>>>>> channel.  That's the only way it makes sense.
>>>>>>         I think they tried this "enhanced" process with
>>>>>> some of the Toscanini recordings.  If the Miller
>>>>>> records are a sample, I would not own the Toscanini.
>>>>>>         Ted
>>>>>> Ted Kneebone
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