[78-L] Fake stereo

Fri Mar 1 14:19:47 PST 2013

That's also  what I've the understood Duophonic  principle to be.    

Although not all Capitol Duophonic seemed to be created the same.    Sometimes there's is a very pronounced delay, and when you fold it you get the 'pingy' effect I described.    Sometimes it just sounds more phasey.

I say this not as someone who's spent a lot mucking about with Duophonic records, rather, just going by the ones to pass by me over the years.       I never buy them anymore, no matter how cheap.

________________________________
 From: Royal Pemberton <ampex354 at gmail.com>
To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com> 
Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [78-L] Fake stereo

Capitol's Duophonic had at least one extra delay going on between the left
and right channels, not simply delaying the right channel by 32-33
milliseconds and inverting polarity and adding EQ.  I've experimented with
trying to re-synchronise the two channels of a Duophonic track to see if
that results in EQ split fake stereo but no matter what there is that
delay-derived artifact in there one place or another.  The worst example I
can think of where they brought an extra one into, and out of a Duophonic
version is 'Tampico' from the STAN KENTON'S GREATEST HITS LP where a
centred one just ahead of the left (and then the right) channels appears
only during the passages where June Christy is singing.

On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Cary Ginell <soundthink at live.com> wrote:

>
> Then were releases whose catalog numbers implied that they were fake
> stereo, only to reveal TRUE stereo when it was played.
> I believe I recall some things on RCA Camden that were like this.
> Cary Ginell
>
> > Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 15:26:03 -0500
> > From: dlennick at sympatico.ca
> > To: 78-l at klickitat.78online.com
> > Subject: Re: [78-L] Fake stereo
> >
> > Then there were reissues, in mono, which were taken by mixing down fake
> stereo
> > masters. Think it didn't happen? RCA did this with an Eddie Fisher
> compilation
> > and one or two cast albums.
> >
> > Fake stereo issues that actually sounded good, to me:
> >
> > QUIET VILLAGE..Les Baxter
> > BEST OF HUGO WINTERHALTER
> >
> > I wouldn't swear that the entire lp was good in either case, but for the
> few
> > cuts we used on air, they sounded fine.
> >
> > dl
> >
> > On 3/1/2013 3:16 PM, Michael Biel wrote:
> > > Let me explain something about echo/reverb vs. tone controls and comb
> > > filtering.  There is a slight amount of phase shifting whenever tone
> > > controls are used.  ANY tone control.  In electronic terms this phase
> > > shift is a slight delay measured in microseconds.  (This includes
> > > inherent equalization like RIAA, and is why RIAA playback
> > > re-equalization must be done in the analog domain, NOT in the digital
> > > domain.  We had a tutorial about this at ARSC a couple of years ago.
> > > You cannot feed a flat LP audio into your computer and expect any but
> > > the very expensive programs to put in the RIAA equalization.)  It is
> > > also why the Vinylphools do not have variable tone controls in their
> > > systems.  Changing the tone can affect the "soundstage" of 2 or 3-mic
> > > stereo like Mercury Living Presence, Decca/London blue-backs, or RCA
> > > Living Stereo which depends on phase relationships.  Overdub or
> > > multitrack stereo are not affected as much, but these guys hate that
> > > stuff anyway.
> > >
> > >
> > > So, when comb filtering is done, unless it is done so the left and
> right
> > > channel filters match exactly in a mirror image to each other, you
> > > cannot re-combine the two channels without having some phase
> > > cancellation.  That would be the "pingy" effect you mention, I think.
> > > I've never heard that word used except in ping-pong which is wide
> motion
> > > between channels.
> > >
> > > The phase-delay of comb filtering is NOT the same as echo or reverb.
> > > This is delaying the sound to the point that you can hear the delay.
> > > Tone controls do not delay the sound that much.  Echo is where the
> > > distinct delays are discretely heard, like in tape-delay.  Reverb is
> > > where the repetition delays are so dense that they are not discretely
> > > heard.  Much of what RCA Victor used on pop records was echo, hence the
> > > Harry Belefonte Quartette.  They also tended to roll off the bass on
> the
> > > left and roll it up on the right along with a roll-off of the highs.
> > > Capitol Dupohonic tended to do more comb filtering and reverb.  I
> > > wouldn't be surprised if they might sometimes have used the underground
> > > natural chambers by the Capitol Tower, but otherwise reverb was usually
> > > done with the Neumann Plate or the AKG Springs
> > >
> > > Echo or reverb cannot be removed.  Rolling off can usually be undone,
> > > and comb filtering can sometimes be recombined IF done with that in
> > > mind.  Sometimes the engineers DID check the compatibility.
> > >
> > > Mike BIel  mbiel at mbiel.com
> > >
> > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > Subject: Re: [78-L] Fake stereo
> > > From: Ryan Wolfe<nextset4 at yahoo.com>
> > > Date: Fri, March 01, 2013 2:38 pm
> > > To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> > >
> > > I guess that figures, that Capitol would put their classical stuff
> > > through Duophonic.  Yuck.
> > >
> > > It's hard to even reconvert Duophonic back to true mono...you can't
> fold
> > > it down , the pingy airplane hangar effect remains.
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > >   From: Royal Pemberton<ampex354 at gmail.com>
> > > To: 78-L Mail List<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 10:41 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [78-L] Fake stereo
> > >
> > > AFAIK there are some classical albums which did use that L/R delay, and
> > > they are on Capitol (whether on Capitol or Angel I can't say as what I
> > > heard was from an excerpt on the sampler/promo that first hawked
> > > Duophonic).
> > >
> > > On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Ryan Wolfe<nextset4 at yahoo.com>  wrote:
> > >
> > >> Somewhere, I read an account by guy charged with what were the first
> fake
> > >> stereo releases for RCA.
> > >>
> > >> He had Toscanini stuff to to work with and described his laborious and
> > >> time consuming attempts
> > >> manipulating a comb filter to try to take the mono sources and put
> them
> > >> into a convincing and somewhat varied stereo presentation.
> > >> Then RCA wanted him to do that with all their stuff, which was going
> to be
> > >> impractical, so he / they opted for something easier.
> > >>
> > >> I've never heard a classical album that took a mono source and put it
> on
> > >>   a true L / R delay, just the ones that use the bass in one channel
>  /
> > >> treble in the other approach.  Including things like Toscanini.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >>   From: Ted Kneebone<tkneebone1 at abe.midco.net>
> > >> To: 78-l<78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> > >> Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013 8:06 AM
> > >> Subject: [78-L] Fake stereo
> > >>
> > >> I have at least one LP of Glenn Miller done in
> > >> what is called "enhanced" stereo, or something
> > >> like that.  One channel is delayed slightly.  The
> > >> effect is supposed to sound like an echo.  It
> > >> really ruins what was perfectly good mono sound --
> > >> and surely is not stereo.
> > >>     When i play this disc, I listen to only one
> > >> channel.  That's the only way it makes sense.
> > >>     I think they tried this "enhanced" process with
> > >> some of the Toscanini recordings.  If the Miller
> > >> records are a sample, I would not own the Toscanini.
> > >>     Ted
> > >> Ted Kneebone
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> >
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