[78-L] Use of double bass in dance bands

Fri Oct 26 03:44:42 PDT 2012

Yes Philip, I hadn't thought of that. 
Regards
Tim Huskisson

-----Original Message-----
From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
[mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of Philip Carli
Sent: 26 October 2012 03:35
To: 78-L Mail List
Subject: Re: [78-L] Use of double bass in dance bands

One other element in American dance recordings that may have had a distinct
influence would be te use of the bass saxophone[ it
________________________________________
From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
[78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] on behalf of Tim Huskisson
[timhuskisson at btinternet.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:20 PM
To: '78-L Mail List'
Subject: Re: [78-L] Use of double bass in dance bands

I accept and understand all of this Philip, I work with exceptionally good
Brass Bass players here in the UK, and I'm certainly not saying it isn't
possible to play continuous quarter-notes. Perhaps my use of the word
'clumsy' was inappropriate. But I maintain that continuous quarter notes are
better suited to pizzicato String Bass, and I'm sure arrangers of the time
would have had this in mind - even if they didn't specify 'STRING Bass' on
the charts.

My original point is this... I believe that the transition from 2, to
4-in-the-bar Swing probably began with the influence of String Bass players
who often improvised 4-in-a-bar 'slap-bass' features WITHIN 2-in-a-bar
arrangements. I can't prove it, and I could easily be wrong, but it seems to
me to be a logical thought process.

Regards
Tim Huskisson

-----Original Message-----
From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
[mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of Philip Carli
Sent: 25 October 2012 17:59
To: 78-L Mail List
Subject: Re: [78-L] Use of double bass in dance bands

Let's try this again - Listen to how short brass bass players can make the
sound; how you can vary it, accent, punch, lightly tongue go on the upper
side of the pitch and harmonics.  I studied with Harvey Phillips, who
trained under Bill Bell, and Harvey knew the 20s-30s NY pop tuba scene
through Bill  Harvey stressed a lot of articulation and tonal studies, and
that gives the instrument a wide expressive and functional path.  A lot of
doublers between brass and string bass used huge mouthpieces, like the
Helleberg model (which was standard for concert band and orchestra work) and
that gives the big "oval" sound you sometimes hear in the Waring and Arnheim
sides with bass solos, but couple a smaller mouthpiece with sharp and varied
articulation you get a very different approach.  It isn't clumsy and never
was. (Think about all the tubists covering concert orchestral string bass
lit in the studios - they were flexible, nimble, and colorful to a very high
degree.)  You hear tha  t a good deal in some early 30s house bands, like on
Crown.  It was a change of taste and a change in instrumental pools as well
- fewer tubists were around in the mid-30s than there had been a decade
earlier.

And stock parts from the10s into the 40s are simply marked "Bass", leaving
it up to the discretion of the leader or player which to use. Nothing was
graven in stone. P. Carli

________________________________________
From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
[78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] on behalf of Tim Huskisson
[timhuskisson at btinternet.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 11:59 AM
To: '78-L Mail List'
Subject: Re: [78-L] Use of double bass in dance bands

While it may be (relatively) easy to play 4 in the bar on a Brass bass, it's
a clumsy instrument to expect the player to produce 128 quarter notes every
32 bar chorus...every tune. 2 in the bar (Root and 5th, etc) just suits the
instrument better. I also doubt that arrangers would have considered Brass
Bass to be the natural choice for 4 in the bar dance music.
I'm fairly convinced that the transition from 2, to 4-in-the-bar dance music
happened mostly as a result of the improvisations of String Bass players
within 2-in-the-Bar arrangements.

Tim Huskisson

-----Original Message-----
From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
[mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of Ron L'Herault
Sent: 25 October 2012 16:30
To: '78-L Mail List'
Subject: Re: [78-L] Use of double bass in dance bands

And it may be even more complicated than that.   One jazz band leader that I
know prefers string bass because it "swings" more.  There are subtle
placements of the accent(s) on a beat, before, at the top of, after, or at
the bottom of, that affect the pulse of the music and therefore the
all-important feeling of swing.

Ron L

-----Original Message-----
From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
[mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of Philip Carli
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 11:09 AM
To: 78-L Mail List
Subject: Re: [78-L] Use of double bass in dance bands

As a tubist, and one who played in various groups from concert to dance
bands for many years, it's easy to 'blow' four-to-the-bar. It's an
articulation issue, not wind.  And there are numerous 20s dance band records
where the tubists handle it perfectly.  Going to string bass was a change of
timbre preference and variety rather than practicality. P. Carli
________________________________________
From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
[78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] on behalf of Tim Huskisson
[timhuskisson at btinternet.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 10:38 AM
To: '78-L Mail List'
Subject: Re: [78-L] Use of double bass in dance bands

I would suggest that it was probably the other way 'round. When Double Bass
replaced Brass Bass, the players - when allowed to improvise - would play 4
in the bar - particularly in 'hot' passages. This in turn led to the
transition to 4 in the bar becoming the norm - and helped herald in the
Swing era.
Tim Huskisson

"..A major reason for the shift to string bass in the 1920s was the
transition from two to four beat phrasing - it was difficult if not
impossible to consistently blow four beats to the bar on a tuba!"

Dave Weiner

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