[78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia

Sun Dec 5 11:14:35 PST 2010

It's the sextet from LUCIA on Victor 96200, the famous '$7 record'.

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Michael Biel <mbiel at mbiel.com> wrote:

> From: Royal Pemberton <ampex354 at gmail.com>
> > I have some 1920s Aussie Columbias with American recordings from 1926 on
> > them, and their labels all state 'Speed 80' even though they were
> recorded
> > at or near 78(.26) AFAIK. Understandable for the two of them I have with
> UK
> > electric recordings from 1926 when they still recorded at 80, but
> still....
>
> The label speeds are usually as "accurate" as the notes in the catalogs
> and sleeves that say to use 78 or 80.  The only Victor of note which has
> a speed notation on the label is one of the quartet or sextet recordings
> where the note says "Speed 82".  However it turns out that the speed is
> actually 80!  High for a Victor but the actual speed is still 2 RPM
> lower than the note, just like many Victor 78s are around 76.
>
> By the way, the strobe disc speed for 78 in 50 Hertz power locations
> such as Australia and Europe is 77.92.  It is 78.26 only here in the 60
> Hertz area.
>
> Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com
>
> On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Matthew Duncan
> <recordgeek334578 at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
> > The only 40s issues of earlier works by Columbia I have seen do have the
> > 80rpm
> > speed on them, so for example in 1948 if you bought a 12" classical disc
> > pressed
> > the year before (but contained a piece done in 1927 at the 80rpm speed)
> it
> > would
> > have 80rpm on the label.
> >
> > I'm guessing this would be the same for other examples, I see no reason
> why
> > they
> > would label others up at 78rpm and some at 80rpm.
> >
> > Matthew.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Philip Carli <Philip_Carli at pittsford.monroe.edu>
> > To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> > Sent: Sun, 5 December, 2010 17:20:15
> > Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> >
> > I had been thinking of "Even bravest heart" just this morning! Thanks for
> > that
> > Damian. And one or two other things; 1) whatever you think of Chorley,
> Fred
> > E.
> > Weatherly (I think he did the first _Pagliacci_ translation) or Basil
> Hood
> > (who
> > did _The Merry Widow_ English libretto heard 'round the world -- and it's
> > closer
> > to the original German than most), their translations were culturally
> > closer in
> > spirit to the original librettists than modern ones. 2) Is there anything
> > really risible about hearing Vilhelm Hansen sing _Tosca_ in Danish? I've
> > got
> > that -- it's not Italian, but it's expressive singing, pretty potently
> > played
> > orchestrally, I enjoy it and I don't know Danish, so maybe language
> > unfamilarity
> > is a component. 3) David, there's a whole world of opera in English
> before
> > Menotti that you might not find vocally sickening. Sometimes poetically
> and
> > dramatically questionable (well, that goes with opera, right?), but
> > musically
> > fluent and enjoyable at the very least. And I remem
> > ber you transferred one of the best for commercial release about fifteen
> > years
> > ago -- a piece often called an operetta, but never by its creators.
> >
> > And finally to get things back to the original inquiry, some of the Percy
> > Pitt
> > BBC Wireless Symphony Orchestra records, all recorded in the late 20s at
> 80
> > rpm,
> > stayed in the catalogue until the early 1940s relabelled "BBC Symphony
> > Orchestra", but I don't know if any there was any label indication of the
> > increased speed on the late issues.
> >
> > PC
> > ________________________________________
> > From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com [
> > 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com]
> > On Behalf Of Damian's 78s [damians78s at damians78s.co.uk]
> > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 11:40 AM
> > To: 78-L Mail List
> > Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> >
> > I'd tend to agree with Philip - having listened to a great many English
> > language operatic recordings (and attended quite a few English language
> > opera performances) does allow one to listen through the translated text.
> > As
> > well as English National Opera, there are still a number of smaller
> > companies here in the UK that perform opera in English. These tend to be
> in
> > more modern translations. However, the older (first) translations into
> > English of many operas are very much of their time (and not necessarily
> > good
> > poetry). The same can, of course, hold true for the original libretti.
> > Opera in English is still looked down on by many. But for me, for
> example,
> > it niggles that when Valentin's aria from Gounod's Faust is sung as a
> > concert piece, it tends to be in French. It was written, of course, for
> > Charles Santley, to an English text by Chorley (Even bravest heart) who
> > provided the standard English translation of the work.
> >
> > As regards Bransby Williams, he's very entertaining, particularly in his
> > Dickensian characters. Keep an eye on my website for a number of his
> > recordings (from 1908 to 1933) in a few weeks time.
> >
> > Damian Rogan
> > www.damians78s.co.uk
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > From: "David Lennick" <dlennick at sympatico.ca>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 5:00 AM
> > To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> > Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> >
> > > I think we're pretty much on target here, actually..and I also can't
> > > understand
> > > the reverence accorded Leonard Bernstein (I have strong opinions about
> > > that
> > > man, who I think should have been charged with murder as well as
> > wholesale
> > > thievery..would have made a great 3-part series on Law & Order, the
> > > derivative
> > > composer who tormented his wife). But the original question was about
> the
> > > recording speed and the matrix numbers at the point where English
> > Columbia
> > > might have changed from 80 to 78. I tossed in a gratuitous opinion
> based
> > > on my
> > > opinion of this performance and old-time Opera In English, and to
> expand
> > > it
> > > beyond the original two words (as we seem to have done) would have
> > changed
> > > the
> > > topic (as we seem to have done).
> > >
> > > I like Harold Williams, can live without Evan Williams, just happened
> to
> > > hear
> > > Bransby Williams (age 82).
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > David
> > >
> > > On 12/4/2010 11:49 PM, Philip Carli wrote:
> > >> Dear David -- I've never found a flat two-word descriptive like
> "pretty
> > >> awful" very informative or considered-sounding as an opinion. It just
> > >> sounds like a toss-off. I thought opinions& criticism had got past
> > such
> > >> statements that tend to crush discussion; hence what appears to be my
> > >> "jumping down throats" in my reply. It's not helpful, is it? The
> > >> recording itself is not "pretty awful"; _you_ find it pretty awful,
> and
> > >> that's more to the point. (I'd go through life happily never hearing
> > >> another note of Mahler, or anything composed or conducted by Leonard
> > >> Bernstein, but those are truly personal tastes and I'm willing to
> > >> consider changing them some day.) Make it clearly a personal statement
> > >> rather than a graven-in-stone dictum.
> > >>
> > >> And as to opera in English translation sounding ludicrous, it is a
> > matter
> > >> of culture, taste, and historical perspective. I have dozens of
> > >> recordings of operatic arias and entire works in translations from
> their
> > >> original languages; who's to say those are ludicrous (except, perhaps,
> > in
> > >> the case of the French _Le Favorite_ being turned into _La Favorita_,
> > >> where the Italian version makes demonstrably dramaturgical nonsense of
> > >> the original)? Who in modern poetic Italian would ever utter
> "Infelice!
> > >> e tuo credevi"? And o.k., we usually hear "M'appari" rather than "Ach,
> > >> so fromm". Which do we tee-hee? (And should we badger singers into the
> > >> impenetrabilities of Czech to sing _Rusalka_ or _Prodana nevesta_
> > >> "correctly" or give them serviceable German, as was the 19th century
> > >> custom, or -- dare I say it? -- English versions to sing so we can
> hear
> > >> them at all? I heard the American premiere of _Rusalka_ as a child in
> > >> San Diego and again at the English National Opera 12 years ago -
> > > - b
> > >> oth in English.)
> > >>
> > >> If you're at all interested (and you can skip this if you like), the
> > >> _Pagliacci_ set is, to my ear, rather well conducted; hardly sluggish;
> > >> the orchestra is a good cross-section of better-class (but not
> > >> absolute-top) 1920s London orchestral playing (which was often a real
> > >> gamble, but more characterful than German and more precise than
> > Italian),
> > >> with some fire and style. (I actually tend to prefer not-quite-perfect
> > >> playing to sterile perfection; more character and insight into what
> the
> > >> musicians are doing.) Mullings is impassioned but perhaps hard to
> like,
> > >> and that's really rather interesting as he was such a commanding
> figure
> > >> at the time and maybe _we're_ missing something. Licette's light but
> > >> pleasant, I can't fault Nash (he hasn't much to do) and Williams is
> > solid
> > >> and reliable, and sometimes really thrilling, but in the English style
> > --
> > >> which may be the unattractive thing with the set overall for many
> > people.
> > >> I got into a discussion on Evan Williams with an English c
> > > oll
> > >> eague (I being anti-Williams), and I went back to the records and
> > >> realized I was coming at his style the wrong way. The translation is
> the
> > >> original, and many companies (including the Carl Rosa) used it to
> > >> popularize the piece. Give the floweriness the leeway of its period,
> as
> > >> I daresay an Italian would argue for Leoncavallo's own text. The set
> is
> > >> a document of an interesting time in British opera, when the Old Vic
> was
> > >> also doing opera in English to working-class audiences (there's a nice
> > H.
> > >> V. Morton piece on that), the Carl Rosa was performing everywhere from
> > >> Hell to Huddersfield, and English Columbia decided to expend
> substantial
> > >> trouble in making the UK's first electrical complete opera sets for a
> > >> yet-untested public.
> > >>
> > >> These are _my_ opinions, and they are only that. And I do jump!
> > >>
> > >> Philip
> > >> ________________________________________
> > >> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
> > >> [78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of David Lennick
> > >> [dlennick at sympatico.ca]
> > >> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 10:20 PM
> > >> To: 78-L Mail List
> > >> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> > >>
> > >> Sorry, Philip. I've heard the set and if you prefer idiosyncratic,
> fine.
> > >> I
> > >> transferred it and hoped I'd never have to listen to it again. As for
> > the
> > >> conductor, my error, it's Eugene Goossens Senior. I was looking at a
> > >> photocopy
> > >> of the album's liner and missed the "Snr". Why are you jumping down my
> > >> throat
> > >> over a legitimate opinion which have been echoed on this list? Good
> > >> singers,
> > >> bad concept. Opera in English was something considered a necessity at
> > one
> > >> point
> > >> and may still have its defenders, but even you'd have to admit that it
> > >> can
> > >> sound pretty ludicrous.
> > >>
> > >> dl
> > >>
> > >> On 12/4/2010 9:54 PM, Philip Carli wrote:
> > >>> What a cheap dismissive comment. I have this set and the recent
> > >>> excellent CD transfer done in the UK and it's certainly
> idiosyncratic,
> > >>> but not just unthinkingly "pretty awful". And which Goossens is it?
> > >>> And which translation? And what's the history of the set? And why is
> it
> > >>> important (yes, it is)? I throw these out because I get annoyed at
> flip
> > >>> judgments.
> > >>> ________________________________________
> > >>> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
> > >>> [78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of David Lennick
> > >>> [dlennick at sympatico.ca]
> > >>> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 7:16 PM
> > >>> To: 78-L Mail List
> > >>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
> > >>>
> > >>> I've had this set..I may still have it (don't see it on the shelf)
> but
> > I
> > >>> held
> > >>> onto the information. Matrix numbers are between WA 4999 and 5062.
> > >>> Features
> > >>> Heddle Nash, Miriam Licette, Dennis Noble, Frank Mullings and Harold
> > >>> Williams,
> > >>> conducted by Eugene Goossens, and as I recall it's pretty awful.
> > >>>
> > >>> dl
> > >>>
> > >>> On 12/4/2010 6:25 PM, Royal Pemberton wrote:
> > >>>> I wonder if they were any more or less consistent with that speed
> > >>>> specification compared with other labels of the time? Somewhere in
> > the
> > >>>> archives of 78-L one can find the exact matrix number at which UK
> > >>>> Columbia's
> > >>>> standard speed became 78 (IIRC it was some time in 1927).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 3:19 AM, Steven C.
> > >>>> Barr<stevenc at interlinks.net>wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> From: "Glenn Longwell"<glongwell at snet.net>
> > >>>>>> I had someone write to me through my website asking if I was
> > >>>>>> interested
> > >>>>> in
> > >>>>>> a 12 record set in a binder by the British National Opera Company
> > >>>>>> performing Pagliacci. He's located in the UK so shipping would be
> a
> > >>>>>> bit
> > >>>>>> prohibitive to get it to me in the US. What struck me funny about
> > the
> > >>>>>> set
> > >>>>>> when I looked at the pictures was the speed was listed as 80rpm.
> Is
> > >>>>>> this
> > >>>>>> indicative of a certain time period for British Columbias? I only
> > >>>>>> have
> > >>>>> one
> > >>>>>> British Columbia of that label type in my collection and just
> looked
> > >>>>>> at
> > >>>>>> it. Never noticed but it also says 80rpm.
> > >>>>> Anyone interested in this set?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> During the early-mid twenties, British Columbia cited their speed
> as
> > >>>>> 80
> > >>>>> rpm!
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Steven C. Barr
> > >>>>>
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > >
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