[78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia

[Damian's 78s]

I'd tend to agree with Philip - having listened to a great many English 
language operatic recordings (and attended quite a few English language 
opera performances) does allow one to listen through the translated text. As 
well as English National Opera, there are still a number of smaller 
companies here in the UK that perform opera in English. These tend to be in 
more modern translations. However, the older (first) translations into 
English of many operas are very much of their time (and not necessarily good 
poetry). The same can, of course, hold true for the original libretti.
Opera in English is still looked down on by many. But for me, for example, 
it niggles that when Valentin's aria from Gounod's Faust is sung as a 
concert piece, it tends to be in French. It was written, of course, for 
Charles Santley, to an English text by Chorley (Even bravest heart) who 
provided the standard English translation of the work.

As regards Bransby Williams, he's very entertaining, particularly in his 
Dickensian characters. Keep an eye on my website for a number of his 
recordings (from 1908 to 1933) in a few weeks time.

Damian Rogan
www.damians78s.co.uk


--------------------------------------------------
From: "David Lennick" <dlennick at sympatico.ca>
Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 5:00 AM
To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia

> I think we're pretty much on target here, actually..and I also can't 
> understand
> the reverence accorded Leonard Bernstein (I have strong opinions about 
> that
> man, who I think should have been charged with murder as well as wholesale
> thievery..would have made a great 3-part series on Law & Order, the 
> derivative
> composer who tormented his wife). But the original question was about the
> recording speed and the matrix numbers at the point where English Columbia
> might have changed from 80 to 78. I tossed in a gratuitous opinion based 
> on my
> opinion of this performance and old-time Opera In English, and to expand 
> it
> beyond the original two words (as we seem to have done) would have changed 
> the
> topic (as we seem to have done).
>
> I like Harold Williams, can live without Evan Williams, just happened to 
> hear
> Bransby Williams (age 82).
>
> Cheers
> David
>
> On 12/4/2010 11:49 PM, Philip Carli wrote:
>> Dear David -- I've never found a flat two-word descriptive like "pretty 
>> awful" very informative or considered-sounding as an opinion. It just 
>> sounds like a toss-off.  I thought opinions&  criticism had got past such 
>> statements that tend to crush discussion; hence what appears to be my 
>> "jumping down throats" in my reply.  It's not helpful, is it?  The 
>> recording itself is not "pretty awful"; _you_  find it pretty awful, and 
>> that's more to the point.  (I'd go through life happily never hearing 
>> another note of Mahler, or anything composed or conducted by Leonard 
>> Bernstein, but those are truly personal tastes and I'm willing to 
>> consider changing them some day.)  Make it clearly a personal statement 
>> rather than a graven-in-stone dictum.
>>
>> And as to opera in English translation sounding ludicrous, it is a matter 
>> of culture, taste, and historical perspective.  I have dozens of 
>> recordings of operatic arias and entire works in translations from their 
>> original languages; who's to say those are ludicrous (except, perhaps, in 
>> the case of the French _Le Favorite_ being turned into _La Favorita_, 
>> where the Italian version makes demonstrably dramaturgical nonsense of 
>> the original)?  Who in modern poetic Italian would ever utter "Infelice! 
>> e tuo credevi"?  And o.k., we usually hear "M'appari" rather than "Ach, 
>> so fromm".  Which do we tee-hee? (And should we badger singers into the 
>> impenetrabilities of Czech to sing _Rusalka_ or _Prodana nevesta_ 
>> "correctly" or give them serviceable German, as was the 19th century 
>> custom,  or -- dare I say it? -- English versions to sing so we can hear 
>> them at all?  I heard the American premiere of _Rusalka_ as a child in 
>> San Diego and again at the English National Opera 12 years ago -
> - b
>>   oth in English.)
>>
>> If you're at all interested (and you can skip this if you like), the 
>> _Pagliacci_ set is, to my ear, rather well conducted; hardly sluggish; 
>> the orchestra is a good cross-section of better-class (but not 
>> absolute-top) 1920s London orchestral playing (which was often a real 
>> gamble, but more characterful than German and more precise than Italian), 
>> with some fire and style.  (I actually tend to prefer not-quite-perfect 
>> playing to sterile perfection; more character and insight into what the 
>> musicians are doing.)  Mullings is impassioned but perhaps hard to like, 
>> and that's really rather interesting as he was such a commanding figure 
>> at the time and maybe _we're_ missing something.  Licette's light but 
>> pleasant, I can't fault Nash (he hasn't much to do) and Williams is solid 
>> and reliable, and sometimes really thrilling, but in the English style --  
>> which may be the unattractive thing with the set overall for many people. 
>> I got into a discussion on Evan Williams with an English c
> oll
>>   eague (I being anti-Williams), and I went back to the records and 
>> realized I was coming at his style the wrong way. The translation is the 
>> original, and many companies (including the Carl Rosa) used it to 
>> popularize the piece.  Give the floweriness the leeway of its period, as 
>> I daresay an Italian would argue for Leoncavallo's own text.  The set is 
>> a document of an interesting time in British opera, when the Old Vic was 
>> also doing opera in English to working-class audiences (there's a nice H. 
>> V. Morton piece on that), the Carl Rosa was performing everywhere from 
>> Hell to Huddersfield, and English Columbia decided to expend substantial 
>> trouble in making the UK's first electrical complete opera sets for a 
>> yet-untested public.
>>
>> These are _my_ opinions, and they are only that. And I do jump!
>>
>> Philip
>> ________________________________________
>> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com 
>> [78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of David Lennick 
>> [dlennick at sympatico.ca]
>> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 10:20 PM
>> To: 78-L Mail List
>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
>>
>> Sorry, Philip. I've heard the set and if you prefer idiosyncratic, fine. 
>> I
>> transferred it and hoped I'd never have to listen to it again. As for the
>> conductor, my error, it's Eugene Goossens Senior. I was looking at a 
>> photocopy
>> of the album's liner and missed the "Snr". Why are you jumping down my 
>> throat
>> over a legitimate opinion which have been echoed on this list? Good 
>> singers,
>> bad concept. Opera in English was something considered a necessity at one 
>> point
>> and may still have its defenders, but even you'd have to admit that it 
>> can
>> sound pretty ludicrous.
>>
>> dl
>>
>> On 12/4/2010 9:54 PM, Philip Carli wrote:
>>> What a cheap dismissive comment. I have this set and the recent 
>>> excellent CD transfer done in the UK and it's certainly idiosyncratic, 
>>> but not  just unthinkingly "pretty awful". And which Goossens is it? 
>>> And which translation? And what's the history of the set? And why is it 
>>> important (yes, it is)? I throw these out because I get annoyed at flip 
>>> judgments.
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com 
>>> [78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of David Lennick 
>>> [dlennick at sympatico.ca]
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 7:16 PM
>>> To: 78-L Mail List
>>> Subject: Re: [78-L] Pagliacci set on British Columbia
>>>
>>> I've had this set..I may still have it (don't see it on the shelf) but I 
>>> held
>>> onto the information. Matrix numbers are between WA 4999 and 5062. 
>>> Features
>>> Heddle Nash, Miriam Licette, Dennis Noble, Frank Mullings and Harold 
>>> Williams,
>>> conducted by Eugene Goossens, and as I recall it's pretty awful.
>>>
>>> dl
>>>
>>> On 12/4/2010 6:25 PM, Royal Pemberton wrote:
>>>> I wonder if they were any more or less consistent with that speed
>>>> specification compared with other labels of the time?  Somewhere in the
>>>> archives of 78-L one can find the exact matrix number at which UK 
>>>> Columbia's
>>>> standard speed became 78 (IIRC it was some time in 1927).
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 3:19 AM, Steven C. 
>>>> Barr<stevenc at interlinks.net>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From: "Glenn Longwell"<glongwell at snet.net>
>>>>>> I had someone write to me through my website asking if I was 
>>>>>> interested
>>>>> in
>>>>>> a 12 record set in a binder by the British National Opera Company
>>>>>> performing Pagliacci. He's located in the UK so shipping would be a 
>>>>>> bit
>>>>>> prohibitive to get it to me in the US. What struck me funny about the 
>>>>>> set
>>>>>> when I looked at the pictures was the speed was listed as 80rpm. Is 
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> indicative of a certain time period for British Columbias? I only 
>>>>>> have
>>>>> one
>>>>>> British Columbia of that label type in my collection and just looked 
>>>>>> at
>>>>>> it. Never noticed but it also says 80rpm.
>>>>> Anyone interested in this set?
>>>>>>
>>>>> During the early-mid twenties, British Columbia cited their speed as 
>>>>> 80
>>>>> rpm!
>>>>>
>>>>> Steven C. Barr
>>>>>
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