[78-L] Speaking About Really Early Film Sound Technology -- Read This. Whoa!

[Michael Biel]

From: "Mark L. Bardenwerper, Sr." <citroenid19 at sbcglobal.net>
> If these guys were such incredible geniuses, how come they
> couldn't use a capstan? 

There is a capstan but it can't be seen easily in the YouTube video. 
See the large gray rubber roller right in the front center?  That is the
pinch roller.  Notice that it is slightly brown at the top and the
bottom?  That is where the capstan hits the film -- only at the edges. 
There probably is a lot of slippage.  You can see the capstan in the
videotape Leah shot of the machine from a different angel and we'll post
it soon.  You can also see the capstan in the still picture on this
page: 

http://www.timesunion.com/AutoGallery/StoryGallery.aspx?Template=StoryGallery.aspx&Photo=5&ref=http://timesunion.com/ASPStories/story.asp?StoryID=942480

> Seems they were trying to reinvent the wheel to a certain degree. 

Yes, without much knowledge of how film and tape actually IS played. I
don't think they ever examined something like a Steenbeck film editing
table or a studio tape deck.  The museum also sponsors a Rube Goldberg
Machine Contest at Union College, and had a display of about 50 machines
in the exhibition hall from last year's contest.  

> Doesn't this technology closely resemble the sound system used 
> up into 60's using optics? 
  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150442448884 
> Mark L. Bardenwerper, Sr.

I do think they are using modern amps and photocells, after all, these
are computer people. But there is a large amount of hiss in the audio
system.  This is heard before the film starts up, and at that point the
hiss we had heard in the system seems to equal the film's hiss after it
starts up. This Ampro projector and most others has the advantage of
using a flywheel roller for the film to wrap around right at the audio
pick-up cell.  It can do that because the sound track is at the edge of
the film which extends slightly beyond the roller.  This has the
soundtracks all across the full width of the film and the flywheeling
would have to be different.  But it looks like they just have
unsupported film for much of the film path. There should be a pair of
flywheel rollers to either side of the film as it passes the photocell.

http://www.timesunion.com/AutoGallery/StoryGallery.aspx?Template=StoryGallery.aspx&Photo=3&FirstPhoto=2666444&Time=
 

The large pinch roller has given me an idea that I need to suggest to
them.  It might work better if the rubber roller was the capstan, and
the film make a 180 degree turn over it.  Some of you might know about
the very early tape recorder made by Eicor around 1947 or 48.  It used a
one inch diameter rubber capstan and no pinch roller.  The tape wrapped
around it with a sharp angled tape path.  This might solve the problem,
along with a flywheel.  

Here is a photo of an Eicor owned by HANK WILLIAMS SR!!!  
http://entertainment.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=612&Lot_No=21291

There are a couple of other photos here.
http://www.tapeheads.net/showthread.php?p=102357  

Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com


Michael Biel wrote:
> ...The wow created by this machine is not as evident in speech as it is in
> music, although I do hear the wow especially in the second half of the
> Edison speech. Listen to the chimes and the music in the YouTube
> example. As I have mentioned, I have all of the transfers and the music
> is very difficult to listen to. 
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUm_mPizQFk
>
> As I have mentioned, I think the wow is on the playback machine -- I
> HOPE it is on the machine and not on the films. The machine needs to be
> greatly improved or a REAL player needs to be modified. They do hope to
> do this if funding can be obtained. This machine was cobbled together
> without much knowledge of how sound recordings are really played to just
> prove to potential backers that it could be done and to start to catalog
> what is on the films. 
>