[78-L] Private_acetate_recording_from_1934_???

[Michael Biel]

Julian's posting of the notes from French Vogue LP JLA. 64 explains a
little more clearly than the discography description what the disc is. 
As I had said, we can't trust the discography description of it unless
we know that the reporter of the disc is an expert in the technology. 
If the term "supple discs" means an unsupported flexible plastic disc,
these are probably made of either celluloid or gelatin.  The celluloid
is probably "Cellulose Acetate", so it could really be an acetate.  But
remember, I have often said that lacquer-coated discs are really coated
with Cellulose NITRATE, so what many people improperly call "acetates"
should really be called lacquer or lacquer-coated, or maybe even
nitrate, but never acetate.  I do not know if the discographer was using
"acetate" properly to mean a floppy cellulose acetate sheet, or
improperly to mean any instantaneous-type disc including perhaps a
cellulose nitrate lacquer coated disc.  If he did not know what the disc
actually was, it should have been described as an
"instantaneous","direct cut", or "soft cut" recording.  

Mike Biel  mbiel at mbiel.com   


",,,Pierre Nourry, then in charge of the Hot Club of France, who had med

Reinhardt through the painter Savitry, wanted to have the guitarist 
better known and also hear the comments of the jazz critics. He made a 
recording with Reinhardt.... The 'session' took place not in a 
professional studio, but in a booth in the Boulevard des Italiens, 
Paris, where people can have the voices record on supple discs..."

 Julian Vein



-------- Original Message --------
From: "Milan P Milovanovic" <milanpmilovanovic4 at gmail.com>
> just to add something to our discussion about beginings of electrical
> recordings, as well to celebration of Django 100th birthday I found
> these data in discographical info:
> Tiger Rag After You've Gone Confessin'
> Django Reinhardt g solo; Joseph Reinhardt -g; Juan Fernandez - b
> August 1934 Private acetate
> How come? I always thought that lacquer master discs from around
> 1934. were in theirs prime early form and only for pro. Anyone? 

From: "Michael Biel" <mbiel at mbiel.com>
Definitely possible, especially if this was a European recording, but
also possible in the U.S. Here in the U.S. Presto began advertising The
Presto Disc and their recording machine in October 1934 and many years
ago I started seeing them dated from November 1934. Seth Winner has
some classical airchecks on lacquers from July 1934, presumably Presto
Discs. They did not put markings on their discs for the first few years
till around 1937. Meanwhile over in Europe there were several varieties
of coated discs as early as 1933. Some were gelatin coatings which were
water soluable. Some were a soft lacquer which required baking to
harden after recording (I think those were the Simplat.) There was a
thin aluminum disc with a transparent golden coating that I have from
April 1934 but might have been introduced in 1933. Pyral developed a
disc similar to Presto but I have not had any RELIABLE starting dates
for these, and likewise in England Cecil Watts of Marguarette Sound
Studios started hand-producing a similar MSS disc but dating has been
unreliable. I have a scan of one dated in early 1934 and there are
reports that the BBC started using them in 1935, but I have no other
evidence with a reliable date.

Also in use were floppy celluloid and gelatin sheets in both the U.S.
and Europe, and some could date back to 1930 because they are mentioned
in an article, but I have not seen any in the U.S. before 1933. And of
course there are embossed bare aluminum discs which were introduced in
late 1927 although don't usually show up prior to 1929 or 1930. I do
not know if these were used in Europe that early, but they were used to
record air-checks of the VIDEO of British TV broadcasts in 1933, some of
which still survive and have been restored.

All of these formats were available for amateur use as well as at small
recording studios using them for one-off recording. Either could be the
way the Django recording was made. The use of lacquer for mastering for
metal parts for pressings by record companies is known from 1936, but
could have been done earlier in 1935. There are two known examples of
Speak-O-Phone aluminums used for pressings around 1930 or 31 -- Steve
Barr has one of them, and Donna Halper has the other, I think. 

So yes, the 1934 Django is possible, but the identification of the
technology in that discography is subject to improper terminology if the
observer of the disc is not an expert in the technology. 

Mike Biel mbiel at mbiel.com