[78-L] Evolution of 'rock 'n roll'

Tue Jan 12 11:36:08 PST 2010

Well it *can* be pinpointed to a few recordings..

For example Elvis versions of Blue Moon of Kentucky, Mystery train, Baby
let's play house, My Baby Left me, Heartbreak Hotel simply had no precedent
in music despite being (except Hotel) being covers. They were created
because and despite older musical styles...

They create their own universe in a way Charlie Parkers Koko did.

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 8:24 PM, eugene hayhoe <jazzme48912 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> He wasn't trying to copy anyone.
>
> Then where did the song come from if not Ike Turner, Brenston & co.? To me,
> your argument is specious, given Haley's record of R&B covers. Further, I'd
> say that trying to pin it down to a single song is a foolish game to begin
> with, given the extensive musical miscegenation going on anyway. Also,
> given, as you admit, the many differing forms of primarily Black music upon
> which the music was built (gospel, blues, jazz, swing, vocal group harmony,
> etc..), spread over many years, the idea of linking it to one performance
> seems silly.
>
> If you want to define musical forms by race, then that's your business, but
> I'm not going for it; to my mind it's a lot more complicated than you're
> letting on.  If your point is that white people could hear Bill Haley and
> tell that he was white, not black, and hence more marketable to white people
> than Jackie Brenston, that's not a point I'll argue. But I'm not going for
> anyone's argument that the one who copies someone else (which most
> definitely includes covering a song) hence becomes the originator.
> Popularizer perhaps, innovator even, depending on the manner of
> interpretation, but originator, nope.
>
> Country music was the final ingredient needed to turn black music into rock
> 'n' roll. Few blacks played country music, but Chuck Berry admitted doing
> so, which is why I consider him to be the first black rock 'n' roll artist
>
> What about the Orioles & Crying in the Chapel?  Ida Red/Maybellene is very
> old news indeed, but that does not disenfranchise the Black artists who came
> before from their work (nor was Berry the first to add country, the
> apparently loathed on this list Louis Jordan and the vocal group The Ravens
> were there first, to name just two).  Musicians in bars play what people
> want to hear, Howard Armstrong (Louie Bluie), a black man from Tennessee
> used to play Polish, Irish and other European ethnic music in the 'bars of
> Chicago in the 1930s, cause that's what the patrons wanted - does that make
> him a r 'n r'er? No.
>
> Also sounds like you're saying that horns and piano r 'n r (say, Little
> Richard, Fats D., Lloyd Price, Longhair, Big Jay McNeely, etc.) isn't r 'n r
> cause there are horns and other things that hadn't been used in 'country'
> music since the days of Jimmie R. & His Georgia Crackers (NY session men
> Mannie Klein, et al) or western swing.  I'm not going for that. Ever listen
> to Charlie Christian, T-Bone Walker and Floyd Murphy? Very little that they
> played was not copied by later guitarists, even if they had never heard of
> them, that is how influential they were. Haley shared a guitarist with Benny
> Goodman. I have and have heard Haley's early records, I don't understand why
> you are so reluctant to give people credit for what they have done. Haven't
> seen the name of Jordan and Haley's  later producer Milt Gabler here either
> - he allegedly stated that he was trying to copy Jordan.
>
> country, gospel, jump, R&B, and blues  The self-righteous historians try to
> give blacks credit for rock 'n' roll the same way Wynton Marsalis talks
> about jazz.
>
> ?????????????????????????????
> The historical record isn't clear enough? Which one is not Black music?
> Black people have been denied their role for a long time; how often is
> Sylvester Weaver credited as a 'father of country music ' for his c. 1923
> Guitar Rag? Or DeFord Bailey?
>
> Sounds like you've had this discussion before, and seem to have a bit of a
> grudge about it. Sorry. I can understand why a Black person wouldn't go for
> what you're saying, even though I'm white (and not so much of a Wynton
> fan).  I'd echo Johnny Otis here- 'why do white people have such a hard time
> giving black people credit for what they have done?'  I've got no problem
> with that, if that makes me 'self-righteous' or a Marsalis-ite, so be it.
> I'd rather be that than the alternative.
>
> Gene
>
>
> --- On Tue, 1/12/10, Cary Ginell <soundthink at live.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Cary Ginell <soundthink at live.com>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Evolution of 'rock 'n roll'
> To: 78-l at klickitat.78online.com
> Date: Tuesday, January 12, 2010, 12:26 PM
>
>
>
>
> > CGinnell
> >
> > So the imitator gets the credit? I really don't get the point unless
> you're saying that if it's not whites imitating Black music, it's not rock
> 'n roll?
> >
> >
>
> Bill Haley's "Rocket 88" was not an imitation. Haley was combining
> influences. I don't think rock 'n' roll could have existed without the
> influence of country music. Without it, records like Big Joe Turner's
> "Shake, Rattle & Roll" and Wynonie Harris' "Good Rockin' Tonight" were R&B
> records of the day. Haley added the country element to Jackie Brenston's
> recording, which was not much different from what other blues artists on
> Chess were doing at the time. Haley had been playing country music in the
> Philadelphia area for some years, using an amplified steel guitar and a more
> pronounced 2/4 western swing beat. Haley was doing "Rocket 88" his way for
> his audience. He wasn't trying to copy anyone.
>
> Country music was the final ingredient needed to turn black music into rock
> 'n' roll. Few blacks played country music, but Chuck Berry admitted doing
> so, which is why I consider him to be the first black rock 'n' roll artist
> (He's said on more than one occasion that "Maybellene" was his attempt at
> playing the old Bob Wills fiddle tune "Ida Red"). Elvis combined R&B and
> country in a way no one had done before. Can you name a black version of a
> Bill Monroe song? I can't. The self-righteous historians try to give blacks
> credit for rock 'n' roll the same country, gospel, jump, R&B, and bluesway
> Wynton Marsalis talks about jazz. It just wasn't that simple. Like almost
> every new genre that is introduced, "it takes a village" to create something
> new. Black music of the 1950s wasn't rock 'n' roll, but it contributed to
> rock 'n' roll. You needed the other influences as well to complete the stew,
> and that included . It is my opinion that Haley did this first with
>   "Rocket 88." Everyone
> has their own reasoning for naming one song or another as the turning point
> of rock 'n' roll's development. This is mine. I'm not saying it's right or
> wrong. It's just how I see the history.
>
> Cary Ginell
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390708/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> 78-L mailing list
> 78-L at klickitat.78online.com
> http://klickitat.78online.com/mailman/listinfo/78-l
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> 78-L mailing list
> 78-L at klickitat.78online.com
> http://klickitat.78online.com/mailman/listinfo/78-l
>