[78-L] You never answered Chris Zwarg's question

Sat Jan 24 16:01:59 PST 2009

<< Think blacks were the only ones "denigrated" in the early days of recorded music.? >>

Well, Irish Americans (including some of my ancestors, for example) didn't come over here in chains as slaves. And by the time Al Jolson was doing his thing in the Jazz Singer, guys like Joe Kennedy were working on their 8th or 10th million, so it was far easier for Irish Americans to assimilate into mainstream American culture than was the case for African Americans. And Irish Americans didn't have to lose sleep at night about having their property rights (and voting rights, rights to worship, to work, to marry, to assemble, all of that good stuff embedded in the U.S. Constitution) taken away at a whim by an armed redneck mob and backed up by an indifferent court system and a redneck sheriff with a gun.

Just a few of the "small" differences between the plight of the Irish Americans and that of African Americans.

--- On Sat, 1/24/09, Bud Black <banjobud at cfl.rr.com> wrote:

From: Bud Black <banjobud at cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [78-L] You never answered Chris Zwarg's question
To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 2:11 PM

Okay, then, how about these lyrics?

From, "Who Threw the overalls in Mrs. Murphy's chowder.

"It's an Irish trick, that's true,
I can lick the Mick that threw....."

>From "When Tony Goes Over The Top" - by Billy Murray

"When Tony Goes over the top,
Keep your eyes on that fightin' wop..."

Want some more?  Think blacks were the only ones "denigrated" in the
early
days of recorded music.?

And as for Stephen Foster and Al Jolson not being relevant anymore, may I
add (for the vast majority) neither are 78 rpm records.  So, what the hell
are we doing here?

Bud 

-------Original Message-------

From: Tom
Date: 01/23/09 19:09:11
To: 78-L Mail List
Subject: Re: [78-L] You never answered Chris Zwarg's question

Alrighty. And since you want to revel in the swill of the Al Jolson/Stephen
Foster/Coon Songs milieu, here's some more for those deprived in
race-baiting merriment department.

________________________________

"All Coons Look Alike To Me"

[Verse]

Talk about a coon a having trouble
I think I have enough of ma own
It's all about ma Lucy Janey Stubbles
And she has caused my heart to mourn
Thar's another coon barber from Virginia
In soci'ty he's the leader of the day
And now ma honey gal is gwine to quit me
Yes, she's gone and drove this coon [i.e., me] away
She's no excuse
To turn me loose
I've been abused
I'm all confused
'Cause these words she did say:

[CHORUS]

All coons look alike to me
I've got another beau, you see,
And he's just as good to me as you, nig! ever tried to be
He spends his money free,
I know we can't agree
So I don't like you no how
All coons look alike to me

________________________________

<< I always found both the Foster and "coon" songs I heard on
old records
endearing
<< rather than condescending. I have no problem imagining the
"heroes" of
many of
<< these songs as likeable real persons I could get along with splendidly
-
precisely
<< the last thing a racist (as I understand that word) would want.
>>

<< And no, sorry, I'm NOT joking, just being mighty sick of what
happened
yesterday,
<< [an apparent reference to the inauguration of an African American as
President of
<< the United States -- eek !!] and even sicker that your n*gger
president
has so
<< quickly taken over this list as well.

<< Chris Zwarg >>

Yup. I bet. And while you're at it, can you point out the
"endearing" part
of the coon song, please?

--- On Fri, 1/23/09, Jess McLean2 <jessmclean2 at verizon.net> wrote:

From: Jess McLean2 <jessmclean2 at verizon.net>
Subject: [78-L] You never answered Chris Zwarg's question
To: "78 List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 5:58 PM

OK-

You never answered Chris Zwarg's question - a request to show what backs up
your position concerning the Foster songs.

I have a question for you. Tell me WHO/WHAT race-religion-ethnicity DOSE NOT
GET STEREOTYPED regularly, by comics, music, shows, and plain old
walk-around
folks? I believe that no group of people or location in the country can
claim
innocence in these matters.

I have heard that "the north loves the blacks as a race but hates them as
individuals and the south loves them as individuals and hates them as a
race." I would bet that some of the comments and individuals replying
would
fit this description pretty well.

The fact of the matter - I have often been "put down" for my accent,
for the location where I grew up and my ethnic background, but it means
nothing
as it is more a measure of the speaker than of me. There are numerous
replies to
the initial message who put themselves in that category by their replies. A
lot
of the replies on this subject are by the sanctimonious ones who [as usual]
"...see the spec in another's eye and can't see the one in his
own."

I have regularly seen snide comments on this list which are "put
downs" for the president and religions and even countries along with other
comments touting their own ethnicity/race/religion/culture - but that's all
ok because its from the one in the "in crowd." Most all of them are
gratuitous, but no one says anything until  one comes up with what
"you" consider in your opinion"bad." So then all the
judgmental stuff starts.

Many of the replies have been of the form of   "I'm always right and
wonderful and I'm gonna tell you what you are." ... BS!

There are a lots of really smart people on this list - and they should start
using their smarts to ignore those things of no great moment.

My 2 cents.

Jess McLean

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Jess McLean2
  To: 0 AA Me
  Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 4:31 PM

  Message: 6
  Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 13:54:15 -0800 (PST)
  From: Tom <nice_guy_with_an_mba at yahoo.com>
  Subject: Re: [78-L] Stephen Foster
  To: 78-L Mail List <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
  Message-ID: <177274.84036.qm at web52204.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

  ?
  This song clearly and unequivocally mimicks the speech patterns of African
Americans in a pejorative manner, as I think you know.
  ?
  So what is gained, culturally, by this kind of stereotyping? And what is
achieved artistically by perpetuating the stereotype of African Americans as
shiftless and?inarticulate, but happy-go-lucky, people who indulge in the
zero-sum game of betting on horse races?
  ?
  Actually, make that the less-than-zero-sum game of betting on horse races
since the house has to be paid.
  ?
  Does it, perhaps, serve to nurture and perpetuate stereotypes that are
advantageous to the white power structure of the time, suggesting that
African
Americans aren't responsible enough to take care of themselves since they
rely on gambling rather than work to get by and must, therefore, be taken
care
of by a paternalistic system of slavery?
  ?
  << ... I find nothing ugly or dislikeable about the characters or the
events recounted in this song, nor anything that would induce any negative
or
aggressive emotion ... >>
  ?
  Yeah, I understand that. But then, you're the guy who referred to
President Obama the other day as "your n*gger president" so it's
fair to say you're not in a great position from which to speak with
convincing moral authority on this issue.
  ?
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