[78-L] Race observations

[fnarf at comcast.net]

Many blacks performed in blackface as well, which is downright weird.

--
Steve.

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Ron L'Herault" <lherault at bu.edu>
> I would like to weigh in on the Jolson issue.  I like Jolson's voice and
> style. He did lots of tunes and was in many many musicals.  It was not all
> in blackface, which, was THEATER.  The characters he portrayed were usually
> smart and came out on top.  From what I have read about Jolson, he was not
> any more racist than anyone else of his era, and in fact was probably less
> racist.  Jolson was always known to help Black artists.  And besides, we
> shouldn't condemn people or music from the past out of hand.  We can't look
> at them with modern eyes.  And, yes, people are still singing tunes Jolson
> that sang and or had a hand in writing.
> 
> Jolson was not the only performer to appear in black face either.  Eddie
> Cantor comes quickly to mind.  Others donned Chinese garb and make-up.
> Warner Oland as Charlie Chan is an example.  Comedians of all different
> races made themselves up to look like other people.  Was it now what we
> consider racist? In many cases, yes.  Did it denigrate?  Again, in many
> cases, yes, it was.  Was it mean-spirited? In some cases, I'm sure it was,
> but from what I have seen that was not the usual case.  Should we go back to
> the way it was 20, 50 or 100 years ago? No.  But we should not have to erase
> it from our consciousness either.
> 
> Ron L
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
> [mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of Tom
> Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:07 PM
> To: 78-L Mail List
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations
> 
> 
> What is it, exactly, about American art forms that depict African-Americans
> in the most demeaning, pejorative, and degrading light that you guys find
> redeeming and worthwhile?
>  
> I'd really like to know.
>  
> You guys are big fans of Al Jolson (and now, it seems, his source of
> inspriation, if you want to call it that, Stephen Foster) who made a career
> of sorts, by depicting African-Americans as wide-eyed, lustful,
> disorganized, ignorant and inferior to whites.
> 
>  
> Is there supposed to be something ennobling artistically in those sorts of
> stereotypes? If so, would you mind expanding on what it is?
>  
> What about Buckwheat and Amos-'n-Andy? You guys overlooked them.
>  
> And the use of the word "nigger" to refer to people of African
> American descent was always derogatory, offensive and racist and still is
> irrespective of whether it appeared in Broadway shows, in movies, on the
> stage, in audio recordings or elsewhere. It was never quaint or
> affectionate, much less "endearing".
>  
> And by the way, no one performs Stephen Foster or Al Jolson songs any more
> and for good reason.
>  
> 
> --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Chris Zwarg <doctordisc at truesoundtransfers.de> wrote:
> 
> From: Chris Zwarg <doctordisc at truesoundtransfers.de>
> Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations
> To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
> Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 4:08 AM
> 
> At 07:04 23.01.2009, you wrote:
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >From: "DAVID BURNHAM" <burnhamd at rogers.com>
> >>In the generation before ours, (Steven's 
> >> and mine), the n-word seemed to be acceptable even in polite company.
> It 
> >> occurs twice in the 1936 recording of "Mikado", famously in
> "Showboat", 
> >> many times in the Shilkret album of Stephen Foster and, of course, in 
> >> countless "coon song" records. To my knowledge, in none of
> these cases is 
> >> the term used derogatorily, in fact in some cases it's used 
> >> affectionately. 
> 
> At face value it is derogatory in "Mikado", but Gilbert put it there
> in a farcical vein, as part of Ko-Ko's "little list" of despicable
> individuals he'd like to see executed. A few moments later it is revealed in
> the story that despite this mighty rant - BTW set to the most tip-toeing and
> non-ranting music imaginable - he couldn't even kill a bluebottle. The
> ominous list contains among others the author himself ("the judicial
> humorist" - Gilbert had been a lawyer before he turned to writing
> operettas), and traditionally, in the last verse, any current celebrity the
> singer and producer find a way to fit into the metre.
> 
> I didn't dare to say this yesterday, but now I'll chime in that I
> always found both the Foster and "coon" songs I heard on old records
> endearing rather than condescending. I have no problem imagining the
> "heroes" of many of these songs as likeable real persons I could get
> along with splendidly - precisely the last thing a racist (as I understand
> that
> word) would want.
> 
> All the songs you quote are so far removed from being racist agitprop that
> the
> cuts or bowdlerizations common today to remove the "offensive" word(s)
> - or in case of Foster the suppression of the whole genre from the current
> repertoire except maybe as instrumental pieces - strike me as showing a lack
> of
> respect for the integrity of these works of art. To not use a word today in
> conversation - as I learned the hard way here very recently - is one thing,
> to
> "correct" long-dead authors something very different, and endorsing
> one does not make the other more palatable. It's like deciding that, with
> our today's listening expectations, the lack of "blue" notes and
> jazz phrasing in Beethoven's 9th is a defect and should be
> "remedied" to "improve" the work.
> 
> Chris Zwarg
> 
> 
> >You might say that because I'm not Afro-American myself, 
> >> that I have no right to express an opinion on how offensive this might
> be 
> >> and I would offer no argument to that observation. I can never
> experience 
> >> the life of a black in a  white community but I have found myself
> amongst 
> >> entirely black groups of friends and had them calling me names that
> are 
> >> the counter-parts of the n-word in that community but we were fooling 
> >> around and no offense on either part was intended or felt.
> >>
> >> I can foresee the day when the term "gay" is going to be
> unacceptable.
> >>
> >> I know there are many Jewish posters on this list and while the word
> "Jew" 
> >> is probably how they would refer to themselves, I'm sure
> they've all heard 
> >> that word used in an offensive context. Sometimes I believe there is
> too 
> >> much emphasis put on a word and too little on the genuine feelings
> between 
> >> groups in society. A couple of decades ago, the term "frog"
> was introduced 
> >> as an derogatory term for Quebecers but instead of being offended by
> it, 
> >> they ran with it, introducing terms such as "frog power" and
> it lost it's 
> >> impact. Back in the late 50s and early 60s the term "dummie"
> was 
> >> considered politically incorrect, (although that description
> wasn't in use 
> >> yet), but today the term has been cleared, probably because the term
> can 
> >> no longer be used to refer to someone who is mute so it now only has
> one 
> >> meaning, (political correctness for dummies). You still often see
> plumbing 
> >> connections which are called "Siamese connections", okay
> perhaps because 
> >> there
> >> is no longer a country by that name. Are we still using the term
> "Dutch 
> >> treat" or "going Dutch"? That word itself is offensive
> to some 
> >> Nederlanders while others say that's what they are. I don't
> know what 
> >> "Indian giver" has been replaced by.
> >> Anyway, that's my $.02 worth!
> >>
> >Point being that the unacceptability of "N****r" in my post...and
> in my 
> >growing up...
> >was strictly a PERSONAL experience!! This was NOT standard among those
> >of my age demographic...it was just the way *I* was told to behave...!!
> >
> >Sadly, the human race is divided into easily identifiable groups...almost 
> >ALL of
> >whom cordially hate one another!
> >
> >...stevenc 
> >
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