[78-L] Race observations

[Ron L'Herault]

I would like to weigh in on the Jolson issue.  I like Jolson's voice and
style. He did lots of tunes and was in many many musicals.  It was not all
in blackface, which, was THEATER.  The characters he portrayed were usually
smart and came out on top.  From what I have read about Jolson, he was not
any more racist than anyone else of his era, and in fact was probably less
racist.  Jolson was always known to help Black artists.  And besides, we
shouldn't condemn people or music from the past out of hand.  We can't look
at them with modern eyes.  And, yes, people are still singing tunes Jolson
that sang and or had a hand in writing.

Jolson was not the only performer to appear in black face either.  Eddie
Cantor comes quickly to mind.  Others donned Chinese garb and make-up.
Warner Oland as Charlie Chan is an example.  Comedians of all different
races made themselves up to look like other people.  Was it now what we
consider racist? In many cases, yes.  Did it denigrate?  Again, in many
cases, yes, it was.  Was it mean-spirited? In some cases, I'm sure it was,
but from what I have seen that was not the usual case.  Should we go back to
the way it was 20, 50 or 100 years ago? No.  But we should not have to erase
it from our consciousness either.

Ron L

-----Original Message-----
From: 78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com
[mailto:78-l-bounces at klickitat.78online.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:07 PM
To: 78-L Mail List
Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations


What is it, exactly, about American art forms that depict African-Americans
in the most demeaning, pejorative, and degrading light that you guys find
redeeming and worthwhile?
 
I'd really like to know.
 
You guys are big fans of Al Jolson (and now, it seems, his source of
inspriation, if you want to call it that, Stephen Foster) who made a career
of sorts, by depicting African-Americans as wide-eyed, lustful,
disorganized, ignorant and inferior to whites.

 
Is there supposed to be something ennobling artistically in those sorts of
stereotypes? If so, would you mind expanding on what it is?
 
What about Buckwheat and Amos-'n-Andy? You guys overlooked them.
 
And the use of the word "nigger" to refer to people of African
American descent was always derogatory, offensive and racist and still is
irrespective of whether it appeared in Broadway shows, in movies, on the
stage, in audio recordings or elsewhere. It was never quaint or
affectionate, much less "endearing".
 
And by the way, no one performs Stephen Foster or Al Jolson songs any more
and for good reason.
 

--- On Fri, 1/23/09, Chris Zwarg <doctordisc at truesoundtransfers.de> wrote:

From: Chris Zwarg <doctordisc at truesoundtransfers.de>
Subject: Re: [78-L] Race observations
To: "78-L Mail List" <78-l at klickitat.78online.com>
Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 4:08 AM

At 07:04 23.01.2009, you wrote:
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "DAVID BURNHAM" <burnhamd at rogers.com>
>>In the generation before ours, (Steven's 
>> and mine), the n-word seemed to be acceptable even in polite company.
It 
>> occurs twice in the 1936 recording of "Mikado", famously in
"Showboat", 
>> many times in the Shilkret album of Stephen Foster and, of course, in 
>> countless "coon song" records. To my knowledge, in none of
these cases is 
>> the term used derogatorily, in fact in some cases it's used 
>> affectionately. 

At face value it is derogatory in "Mikado", but Gilbert put it there
in a farcical vein, as part of Ko-Ko's "little list" of despicable
individuals he'd like to see executed. A few moments later it is revealed in
the story that despite this mighty rant - BTW set to the most tip-toeing and
non-ranting music imaginable - he couldn't even kill a bluebottle. The
ominous list contains among others the author himself ("the judicial
humorist" - Gilbert had been a lawyer before he turned to writing
operettas), and traditionally, in the last verse, any current celebrity the
singer and producer find a way to fit into the metre.

I didn't dare to say this yesterday, but now I'll chime in that I
always found both the Foster and "coon" songs I heard on old records
endearing rather than condescending. I have no problem imagining the
"heroes" of many of these songs as likeable real persons I could get
along with splendidly - precisely the last thing a racist (as I understand
that
word) would want.

All the songs you quote are so far removed from being racist agitprop that
the
cuts or bowdlerizations common today to remove the "offensive" word(s)
- or in case of Foster the suppression of the whole genre from the current
repertoire except maybe as instrumental pieces - strike me as showing a lack
of
respect for the integrity of these works of art. To not use a word today in
conversation - as I learned the hard way here very recently - is one thing,
to
"correct" long-dead authors something very different, and endorsing
one does not make the other more palatable. It's like deciding that, with
our today's listening expectations, the lack of "blue" notes and
jazz phrasing in Beethoven's 9th is a defect and should be
"remedied" to "improve" the work.

Chris Zwarg


>You might say that because I'm not Afro-American myself, 
>> that I have no right to express an opinion on how offensive this might
be 
>> and I would offer no argument to that observation. I can never
experience 
>> the life of a black in a  white community but I have found myself
amongst 
>> entirely black groups of friends and had them calling me names that
are 
>> the counter-parts of the n-word in that community but we were fooling 
>> around and no offense on either part was intended or felt.
>>
>> I can foresee the day when the term "gay" is going to be
unacceptable.
>>
>> I know there are many Jewish posters on this list and while the word
"Jew" 
>> is probably how they would refer to themselves, I'm sure
they've all heard 
>> that word used in an offensive context. Sometimes I believe there is
too 
>> much emphasis put on a word and too little on the genuine feelings
between 
>> groups in society. A couple of decades ago, the term "frog"
was introduced 
>> as an derogatory term for Quebecers but instead of being offended by
it, 
>> they ran with it, introducing terms such as "frog power" and
it lost it's 
>> impact. Back in the late 50s and early 60s the term "dummie"
was 
>> considered politically incorrect, (although that description
wasn't in use 
>> yet), but today the term has been cleared, probably because the term
can 
>> no longer be used to refer to someone who is mute so it now only has
one 
>> meaning, (political correctness for dummies). You still often see
plumbing 
>> connections which are called "Siamese connections", okay
perhaps because 
>> there
>> is no longer a country by that name. Are we still using the term
"Dutch 
>> treat" or "going Dutch"? That word itself is offensive
to some 
>> Nederlanders while others say that's what they are. I don't
know what 
>> "Indian giver" has been replaced by.
>> Anyway, that's my $.02 worth!
>>
>Point being that the unacceptability of "N****r" in my post...and
in my 
>growing up...
>was strictly a PERSONAL experience!! This was NOT standard among those
>of my age demographic...it was just the way *I* was told to behave...!!
>
>Sadly, the human race is divided into easily identifiable groups...almost 
>ALL of
>whom cordially hate one another!
>
>...stevenc 
>
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