[78-L] records in films, was: request for a silent 78 side

[buster]

just to be clear:

1.  we took off the soundbox

2.  we shoved the little earphone-like speaker into the resulting hole  
in the tonearm

3.  we sealed the tonearm hole with tape (with the speaker wires  
coming through, of course)

4.  we put a boom mic in front of the horn opening

5. we played his music through the speaker

6. we recorded the music coming out of the horn

the result was that the music was altered, distorted, and limited in  
frequency range by two factors:

a.  the limitations of the little speaker
b.  the effects of the horn

i'd imagine they later digitally added a little needle scratch as  
well, but don't know for sure.

On Oct 13, 2008, at 10:30 AM, joe at salerno.com wrote:

> Ah, now I perceive, he was recording the SOUND of the machine without
> actually playing a record on it
>
> joe salerno
>
>
> buster wrote:
>> put a transducer (small speaker) into the throat of the tonearm, then
>> taped it up for an airtight seal.
>>
>> On Oct 13, 2008, at 9:54 AM, joe at salerno.com wrote:
>>
>>> what do you mean " he acoustically coupled a DAT player
>>> to the tonearm of a victrola " ????
>>>
>>> joe salerno
>>>
>>>
>>> buster wrote:
>>>> years ago a guy was sent to my house by Walter Murch, to record  
>>>> some
>>>> music for The English Patient.  he acoustically coupled a DAT  
>>>> player
>>>> to the tonearm of a victrola x, then mic'd the horn and recorded  
>>>> what
>>>> came out.  the audio was dubbed into a scene in the film, which won
>>>> the oscar that year for sound, where the characters play a record  
>>>> in
>>>> the background.
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 13, 2008, at 9:06 AM, David Lennick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> They looked correct in "The Harmonists" but sounded awfully  
>>>>> scratchy
>>>>> for what
>>>>> were supposed to be brand new Electrola pressings.
>>>>>
>>>>> I may have been incorrect about the machine in "Out of
>>>>> Africa" (can't remember
>>>>> whether it was external or internal) but not about the 70s LP on  
>>>>> the
>>>>> turntable.
>>>>>
>>>>> dl
>>>>>
>>>>> joe at salerno.com wrote:
>>>>>> 99.99%? Really?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that is optimiistic. (no pun intended, optical having  
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> discussed in regards to MOS)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Has there EVER been a scene in a movie, excluding documentaries
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> playing grammo records, that DOES accurately depict a record CU  
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> screen being played?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can anyone name even one?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> joe salerno
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David Lennick wrote:
>>>>>>> If they were doing live television, that would make sense, but
>>>>>>> films are shot
>>>>>>> from various angles and takes are intercut, so the source music
>>>>>>> can't possibly
>>>>>>> be live from "the source".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even so, it's great (and unheard of) to find someone actually
>>>>>>> trying to get the
>>>>>>> right materials for a scene involving phonograph records, which
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> misrepresented 99.99 percent of the time. An external horn
>>>>>>> gramophone was seen
>>>>>>> in "Out of Africa", with a close-up of a record with an HMV  
>>>>>>> label.
>>>>>>> A 70s LP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> dl
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chris Zwarg wrote:
>>>>>>>> At 21:14 12.10.2008, you wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Joe wrote,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't get it - just use any record
>>>>>>>>> Hmmm, Joe, nobody, seems to have understood what the film
>>>>>>>>> producer wants
>>>>>>>>> to do....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The way I understand it, as she says there's a problem for the
>>>>>>>>> sound
>>>>>>>>> dept., she wants to film a needle being placed on a rotating  
>>>>>>>>> 78,
>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>> the camera pans back to film the actors/dialogue, all in one
>>>>>>>>> take.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, they don't want music bellowing out from the gramophone
>>>>>>>>> while the
>>>>>>>>> actors speak (they will dub some quiet music in later).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now do you see why they want a 'silent' 78 ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, can anyone help the producer?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>> IMHO, they should find a "suitably quiet" 78 with music fitting
>>>>>>>> the mood of the scene, maybe put a "soft" or "pianissimo"  
>>>>>>>> needle
>>>>>>>> on, and record dialogue AND music in the same take. This way,  
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> music will actually sound like music coming out of a  
>>>>>>>> gramophone,
>>>>>>>> which I presume is what they want to achieve - if that  
>>>>>>>> gramophone
>>>>>>>> is not supposed to play music in the volume and tone quality  
>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>> a machine will typically produce, the scene setup is somehow
>>>>>>>> silly, isn't it? The "natural" volume of the gramophone music
>>>>>>>> should be low enough that the actors can easily hear each  
>>>>>>>> other,
>>>>>>>> so the sound recordist should have no problem to pick the
>>>>>>>> dialogue up clearly; if OTOH the music is so loud as to mask  
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> dialogue, that merely shows that the characters *could just not
>>>>>>>> have been talking the way they do standing next to the machine,
>>>>>>>> as they wouldn't have understood each other*, and they  
>>>>>>>> shouldn't
>>>>>>>> try and film it that way, pretending the gramophone sounds more
>>>>>>>> softly than it does.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Chris Zwarg
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